Degree Mills can work for you

I completely accept Dr. Bear's assessment that the school has merit. However, StanMan's premise of the question was that it was (without naming it originally) a degree mill.

That designation is in the title of the post and in the body of his post. So, I don't see the humor that he sees in the responses since he commited the "sin of omission" here and to his employer. His employer did not ask if the school was a degree mill; he asked if it was accredited. So, while he may have accepted an unaccredited degree, it is not reasonable to think that he would require a degree on the one hand, but accept a degree mill degree on the other.

Clearly, there was deception here (by omission) and there could have been serious consequences. Where's the humor?

There was also disingenuous "amusement" here since he also waited until after the responses to give further information that was in conflict with the premise of the post.

 

How can you be so foolish. I WROTE my own transcript! My friend NEVER went to college and got a degree. They mailed her a degree that listed a AS in Management and she had to call the school and told them that it should say AS in General Studies.
This is really amazing. I am telling you it is a degree mill, and I know because I got paid for a degree from them, and John Bears says that the school has merit because it never claimed to be accredited. There is a difference.
I never "waited until after the responses to give further information that was in conflict with the premise of the post."

 

StanMan,

Perhaps you are reading more into Dr. Bear's assessment than was originally intended. Dr. Bear did not say the school had merit, he simply commended Mr. Chasse for not claiming bogus accreditation--but still a man of odd involvements and behaviors.

He stated that Summit was the least objectionable of all the non-wonderful options. Another way to state this would be to say that 27 men drowned while swimming to shore, but one almost made it. Does this mean the guy who almost made it had merit? No--they all died.

I do agree with your assessment of Summit, which I think you called a "degree mill."

Russell

 

By all accounts, Ray Chasse was a gentleman, a very nice person, but apparently more than a little odd.

I think that the ONLY thing positive that can be said about Summit and American Coastline (both Chasse schools) is that they did not, as most other fraudulent schools do, represent themselves with fraudulent accreditation.

It is very clear, from the scenario described, that Summit was a degree mill of the worst sort. One could rather compare them to the "Prestigious Unaccredited Degrees" people who send a million spams a week or some such. These folks tell you, point blank, that they are a degree mill when you call. And Chasse, based on this description, was doing pretty much the same thing.

However, at the time, Louisiana was one of the worst offenders, having absolutely no oversight of schools in its state, so what they were doing was legal. The laws have since been strengthened there, but many awful schools still operate from there (at least, they have a PO box there...)

My apologies to StanMan for accusations that proved to be incorrect. There are a lot of attempts by the Earlscroft spammer contingent to post degree mill apologia here at degreeinfo, and the sentiment of your post seemed remarkably similar to the standard apologia.

So hopefully, everyone has learned something from this post. I didn't know that Summit offered flat-out cash-for-diploma options, so that little tidbit is very useful.

 

You should stop flinging the "you fool" around. You missed the point entirely. For the purposes of my point, it doesn't matter whether the school had or has merit or not. YOU considered that it was a degree mill and therefore you perpetrated a fraud on your employer. As I stated before, your employer did not ask if your degree was from a degree mill, he asked if it was accredited (an entirely different question). Your fraud was the omission that your degree was from a degree mill. In my opinion, you could have and should have been fired with prejudice.

 

Russell,

As Dr. Bear says, "Who is to say? One man's degree mill is another man's alternative university (BG 14, p. 271)." In Bear's "College Degrees by Mail" both in the 1991 and 1993 editions, at least, Summit is included as one of the "Over 100 Good Schools" listed. The publisher puffed this up to "Over 100 Great Schools" on the back cover of the 1993 edition. In the 1995 edition, Dr. Bear initiated an all accredited policy for the 100 good schools, but included "Twelve Good Unaccredited Schools" in a separate section, of which one is Summit U. The intro. to the 12 includes "But it remains the case that many, many folks' needs can be filled by degrees from the more reputable unaccredited schools (p. 165)." As Dr. Bear has been often quoted, "If you are absolutely confident that an unaccredited degree will meet your current and your predictable future needs, then it might well be appropriate to pursue such a degree (BG 14, p. 62)."

It does all come down to what is right and wrong, good and bad, in one's personal ethics. The "sin of ommission" was brought up in StanMan's story. Is it a sin if an interviewer asks what is your biggest weak point, and you reply with a negative that is turned into a positive, i.e., "I tend to be spend too much time at work, but my family is understanding?" It's a basic in interviewing that the applicant only answers the question directly, not going further than what's asked, and certainly not bringing up any possible negatives if not directly asked.

StanMan figures Summit was a diploma mill because he wrote his own transcript. However, this is a condensed version of the work and life experience portfolio good for RA credit, up to 120 credits, at TESC. The difference is, of course, the extensiveness of writing, review, and measure of legitimacy of the school. But this is to be expected, as the price difference is $150 versus $1500 or more. You get what you pay for, but it's nice that people who want a bargain basement credentialization of work and life experience, whether for StanMan's limited purpose, or just to hang on the wall, could do so in this land of the free and home of the brave. There are nonfraudelent uses.

Gary

 

Not only because he wrote his own transcripts, but he also speaks of a "friend" who received a degree from Summit, having never been involved with college. Summit issued an associate's degree in management, which the "friend" had to call them and have changed to general studies.

Do legitimate schools, by a mere phone request, change one's degree program (after the fact), degree title, transcript, etc.?

Russell

 

No, no, no. There *is* no comparison. One (Summit) is an accessory to forgery and fraud that, according to StanMan, would print absolutely whatever they were told and give it the stamp of legitimacy.

The other is a State-operated university that employs professors from all over the state (and sometimes elsewhere) who evaluate what the student submits for portfolio in each course, often requiring additional documentation or oral exams to verify that the student has the knowledge.

TESC is ensuring that each student has the same knowledge as someone who took the course that is being challenged.

Summit, according to StanMan, typed up a completely phony transcript.

There is no comparison, and absolutely no justification possible for a fraudulent diploma, whether used for personal ego gratification or defrauding employers.

 

If one is worried about being fired for using the degree (as he said he was upon each call from HR), I don't call that exactly fitting "your current and your predictable future needs."

He put the fraudulent degree on his resume and gave a fraudulent transcript. That is tangible (and criminal is some parts). That would not protect him from being fired (it is just cause). That he dodged the issue in the interview would not protect him.

Very funny. Very '90s. He was just a good shopper, judge. I'm sure you wouldn't mind if your next surgeon got his degree on ebay.

 

I am greatly surprised that the employer would even accept the Summit degree. Both Summit and American Coastline were mills that awarded degrees with very little work, if any at all. I guess writing you own transcript takes some effort.

I found American Coastline to be very affordable in the degree mill ranks. I enjoyed some e-mail discussion a few years ago with Ray Chasse. For about $200 Amercian Coastline would offer me a Doctor of Science. I never took Ray up on the offer as it would have been $200 down the drain, a degree I could never seriously use, and if I did use such a degree would knowinbgly know it was worthless and would be a time bomb. StanMan should have went to the accredited route right away and he was very lucky that he did not get fired. For positions requiring higher degrees he may have been in more serious trouble. A time bomb waiting... His course of action should not be recommended to others. Nonetheless, StanMan thank you for sharing this experience. You were very lucky.

Here in the Research Triable about 7-8 years ago a career counselor to the Durham police dept. lost a $50K per year job because it was found that both his high school diploma and bachelors degree were fakes. I read a newspaper account at the time that he was going to be asked to repay his salary but I do not know what ever happened other than the person did lose their job.

John

 

But John, think of all the benefits of the American Coastline D.Sc.:

1. Impress your mother.
2. Impress your peers.
3. Low cost education.
4. Nice diploma to enchance your office decor.
5. An addition to your CV which would look nice beside the Nova Ph.D.
6. Your title would then be "Dr. Dr. Wetsch."
6. And if none of the above apply, you could always use the diploma to make a paper airplane.

Russell

 

Ficton readers,check out the new book THE ASSociate and see how the expert witness made out while reciting her credentials from diploma mills. All people tempted to use fraudulant degrees should read Margolins' new book. A diploma mill= fiction.

------------------

 

You were a fraud, StanMan. You got away with it. You have since cleaned up your act and have gone straight. I say good for you but, just because you got away with it, it does not justify fraud.

The saddest part of your story (IMHO) is that you believe that just because you got away with fraud that it means that fraud is justified.

 

Russell,

I like the paper airplane option although it would have been an expensive paper airplane. Maybe I should have asked for a diploma in Latin (I've always wanted one of those) so that not too many people could read it.

John

 

Paper airplane is a sure waste. The best option is as toilet paper. Don't you think the ass should deserve an expensive treatment

 

I am very disappointed by what I am reading. Why do so many of you exhibit so much hostility? I am not promoting degree mills, I even stated that I was worried each time HR called me. If you really read what I wrote you will realize that the degree mill AS degree motivated me to get an RA degree. I just reaped the rewards of the RA degree before I got it.

And by the way Bill Highsmith, I never called anyone “you fool”. I said, “how can you be so foolish”. Also John Bear said that Raymond Chase had merit, not Summit University, there is a difference. Maybe you should read the words that are written and not use your interpretation.

I can not believe how some of you people believe that I should lose my job and called me a fraud. You are attacking my integrity and you don’t even know me. I told you about one experience I had and the judgement did not stop. I wanted to share my experience so that a different prospective could be voiced. I am surprised that some of you even believe in DL with your narrow opinions.

Some of you speak as if you are of a higher moral fiber, why than are you so judgmental and angry? Why attack me personally instead of attacking my action? It is indeed a very sad world and I wonder who is really deceiving whom.

 

Again, all anyone has around here are your actions. And when you chose to lead off with dispicable behavior, don't expect any other conclusion. Everyone's entitled to mistakes. But it is not a mistake if you yourself don't consider it one. It is just bad behavior. Perhaps you should stop bragging about it and begin learning from it. Then maybe the next thing you have to say about DL might be taken seriously.

Rich Douglas

 

Some things are not situational. Stealing is bad. Fraud is stealing. You stole from your employer who did not know the nature of your degree, and certainly not how you obtained it. You confirmed that yourself with your fear of HR. You are self-contradictory, amoral, and a thief. And that's based upon YOUR story! I can only imagine what others think of you, unless you keep this behavior--and your lack of values regarding it--from others better than you are able to here!

Rich Douglas

 

A distinction without a difference. As for the rest, Rich covered it nicely. I would add...what whining for an anonymous person!

 

Chip, I agree that an increasing number of employers will check for any criminal background because of the legislation and lawsuits dealing with negligent hiring. However, I still don't believe that a majority check into academic credentials and that is based on many years of HR experience.