Debt limit

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by nosborne48, May 11, 2023.

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  1. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    I hesitated about posting on a rather complicated subject but boiled down and concentrated, I think the debt limit is unconstitutional and that Biden should ignore it in the end.

    My main argument concerns the powers of the Congress and the President. Under the constitution, the Congress alone has the power to levy taxes and appropriate money. The President has the constitutional duty to collect those taxes and spend those appropriated funds in the manner the Congress has directed. The President does not have authority to pick and choose what Congressionally created debts he will or will not pay. Furthermore, once the legislation levying taxes and appropriating funds is passed and signed, it's as binding on the Congress as it is on the President. There is no provision in the constitution for a backdoor after the fact veto by one house of Congress.

    So faced with violating a statute to fulfill his constitutional duty or violating his constitutional duty, and incidentally violating the Fourteenth Amendment, there is no doubt as to where the President's duty lies.

    There is no doubt that the House can and should address the deficit and the the debt but it can't rewrite its own legislation on its own.
     
    Bill Huffman likes this.
  2. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Or mint a few Trillion Dollar Coins. I'd like to see that because of course I would!
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Ultimately, a thing is constitutional or not based on whether at least five Supreme Court Justices say so. It would be interesting to find out what the current membership of that court decides on the debt limit... although the danger is that it would be interesting in the Chinese sense.
     
    Bill Huffman likes this.
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Pay the bills.

    Congress is threatening to fail to cover the spending they themselves spent. The administration should ensure the US is good for it, leverage the 14th Amendment, and argue it before the Supreme Court if necessary. But pay the bills.
     
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  5. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    There's no way to know of course, barring another SCROTUS leak, but I'd expect the Court to punt. Fights between the Legislative and Executive branches are common and each side has its own checks and balances. If SCROTUS decided the case, they'd make big time enemies or plunge the country's finances into crisis. Either way the Court loses.
     
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    What an unfortunate acronym! Sounds --- anatomical. :(
     
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Oh - I think I get it now. That's a hint that the "Five Guys named Justice" will stick together and carry the day, right?
     
    nosborne48 likes this.
  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

  9. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I agree that this is the least bad scenario if Congress is deadlocked.
     
  10. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    How cynical is Joe Biden? Is it possible that he doesn't want to avoid default if he can blame it successfully on McCarthy and the GOP?
     
  11. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    The thing about the $T coin is that it requires no legislation and does not require the President to disregard the debt limit. I love it!
     
  12. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I doubt it. Not that someone who's thrived in Washington for over half a century isn't cynical, but just that he knows that default would crash the markets and his chance for reelection along with it no matter whose fault it's initially perceived as being.
     
    Suss and Rich Douglas like this.
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I'll admit that it appeals to the numismatist in me, but I wonder how markets would react to such a desperate kludge.
     
  14. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Does it matter whether the markets react to the Coin or a default?
     
  15. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    If Biden goes with the Coin and succeeds that will be the practical end of the debt limit. Congress will have to consider funding and debt when they vote on the budget. Call me a starry eyed idealist but that sounds like the right way to do things.
     
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    A great deal, since only one of those is default.
     
  17. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    All the more reason to mint the Coins!

    Tell you what. Let's put Ronald Reagan's portrait on the Trillion Dollar Coin. That should silence any GOP opposition, right?
     
    Suss and Bill Huffman like this.
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    No. It has never been the policy of the Democratic Party to fail to raise the debt limit so the nation can pay its obligations. That is a thing only for the other party.
     
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    If the entire situation was reversed and it was Trump minting the coin, I know whose face would be on it.
     
  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Well, you can't legally put the face of a living person on a US coin..But what about the other end...hmm.
     
    Suss likes this.

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