DBA after MSQM?

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by JoshD, Nov 3, 2020.

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  1. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    I am still a ways out from completing my degree with Duke but I was curious what others thoughts are on potentially pursuing a DBA?

    I spent (3) years as the Assistant Vice President of a Financial Institution in my area and I am currently employed my an independent Wealth Management firm and working on the SIE, Series 7 and Series 66 to be a Financial Advisor with the company. On the side, I teach Personal Finance, Advanced Personal Finance and Banking Management at an AACSB Business School.

    My goal would be eventually to move into academia full-time and bring in my professional experience to the classroom. I feel students learn more and engage more when the professor has real-world knowledge beyond the theory learned in a doctoral program.

    Would pursuing the DBA be pointless with my experience? Would it be worthwhile? I will never be able to pursue a full-time on-campus degree due to family and work obligations. Obviously, I would be looking at online programs.

    Again, still a ways out but when it comes to these decisions, I try to weigh them significantly before deciding.
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    A doctorate won't do that, especially one earned nontraditionally. The lack of a doctorate, however (and however earned) may prevent it, however.
    Depends on the student and what's being learned. Because the DBA is a professional--not a scholarly--doctorate, this may be more likely to be true.

    Which are not designed to be pipelines into academia. Better to foster relationships with people at schools where you might be interested in teaching. You'll need to be someone they want, that they're grateful the lack of a doctorate isn't going to be a problem. The traditional approach? Forget about it. You will not have had the experience, nor fostered the relationships necessary to succeed in that route. In short, they won't want you simply because you've obtained the doctorate, and all your "real world" experience won't mean a thing. But your lack of traditional academic experiences--published papers, symposia, teaching on campus, etc.--means you're not for them and they know it.

    As with all such things, of course, YMMV.
     
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  3. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    Thankfully, the University I currently teach at has a great interest in me. They want me to take on more courses and so forth. I do not foresee landing a full-time position here out of the question as I have a phenomenal relationship with the Department Chair and the Faculty. However, most of their full-time positions call for a PhD or DBA from an AACSB or ACBSP program.
     
  4. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    It depends. If you're interested in teaching at an R1 or R2 school, a DBA (pursued online or on-campus), or a Ph.D. pursued online, perhaps will not get you the job. These schools typically hire people with Ph.Ds pursued traditionally or DBAs with a dissertation component. It's not unusual for students in these programs to have a few peer-review publications by the time they complete their doctorates. Not saying it's impossible to be hired through the non-traditional route but getting in the academy is competitive as it is. Furthermore, there's been even more decline in FT faculty positions since COVID. Do you want to teach at a doctoral/professional university (formerly R3) or maybe a master's comprehensive four-year school? If so, a DBA would definitely suffice along with your adjunct and professional experiences. A lot of schools, save for two-year schools, require a doctorate or commitment to pursue one. Almost every school offers an MBA, so for accreditation purposes, you need a doctorate to teach graduate-level courses (sometimes not practiced). You don't know which school might launch a part-time DBA or Ph.D. near your "neck of the woods." If you do decide on an online program, I'd say, stay away from the popular online schools (unless, for example, your current school wants to hire you full-time and just need you to get an accredited doctorate to check the box). A lot of jobs, inside and outside of academia, come down to networking. I think an online DBA can definitely get you an FT job but not necessarily at a research-intensive university/college.
     
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  5. smartdegree

    smartdegree New Member

    Had similar dreams of getting a PhD/DBA after my MBA but after thinking it through and looking at all possible options, there are no part-time/online programs that will get me what I want (a tenured faculty position here in Canada). There doesn't seem any option other than going through the traditional academic route of full-time PhD at elite institution -> AP -> tenured assoc prof.

    I get paid really well in my job though (Marketing Analytics), but also have a large mortgage and bills to pay so perhaps I just have to let that dream go. Also can't imagine being a poor grad student again eating ramen for 5-6 years before getting an entry-level AP position.

    I do have fun just browsing through these forums just in case that unicorn part-time PhD/DBA pops up that will be the fulfillment of my dreams.
     
  6. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    UNC-Greensboro has an AACSB Accredited online PhD. It is a part-time PhD program.

    For me, it would be hard going from Duke University to something not as name brand.
     
  7. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

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  8. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Lots of air travel. 3 residential teaching sessions in first 18 months. Two research bootcamps after that. These are WAY more than weekend sessions, I'll bet. And you're expected to maintain employment. There goes all vacation time for 3-4 years I'd figure. A heavy program - in time, content and cost. Well, they call it an Executive PhD. - not an "easy" one...
     
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  9. smartdegree

    smartdegree New Member

    What I've seen is that non-Phd faculty have a

    Thanks. While UNC-Greensboro is a legit school, I am not sure their online part-time PhD would get someone a tenure-track position (perhaps an adjunct position?). Like you mention, it just doesn't have the name brand that academics are looking for. Academics can sometimes be a bit snobbish on school reputation and they tend to hire their own.

    There is this forum I also visit - econjobrumors.com and over there you get real academics saying how competitive it is to get tenure-track jobs. Sure, there is some trolling there because of anonymity but many people who post there are real professors / PhD students at elite econ/business schools (they seem to have intimate knowledge of the workings of each school that seem hard to fake). From what I gather in their posts, if you can't get a PhD in a top 15-20 school, you should forget about tenure-track jobs because all you will get are the perpetual adjunct positions that you can get with just a masters.
     
  10. smartdegree

    smartdegree New Member

  11. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    I am an Adjunct Instructor in an AACSB Accredited Business School with an MBA.

    A Top 15-20 Business School PhD graduate will most likely be looking for jobs in the Top 50 business schools. Most smaller state universities just want an AACSB or ACBSP Accredited PhD or DBA with experience teaching courses. While it is certainly competitive, it is asinine to think you have to have a Top Business School PhD to gain a Tenure Track position. Personally, if I got a PhD at a Top 15 school, I’m not teaching at a small state school. I’m teaching at a Top 25 program. Maybe that is just me.
     
  12. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Where did you derive all this madness? You seem to not know much about tenure-track positions. In case you don't know, TT positions are not only offered at the top research universities. Even some community colleges offer tenure. On the issue of adjunct gigs, a master's degree will not be sufficient to serve as an adjunct in a doctoral program. So, your argument is totally flawed.

    You might be in for a big surprise. Only a small percentage of Ph.Ds obtain professor positions. A lot of newly minted Ph.Ds have to settle for post-doc positions, state schools, and even community colleges. The vast majority ends up in the industry.
     
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  13. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    Oh absolutely. This is not a surprise to me, it was a known thing. What I was saying, is if I am going to get a PhD from Harvard, Yale, MIT, UChicago, etc. I’m not teaching at Oklahoma City Community college or East Central University. I’m teaching at a school like the University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State University, etc. I would however be surprised if you showed me a Harvard Business School PhD or Duke Fuqua PhD teaching at a community college.

    Most of my professors spent time in industry after their PhD. My Economics Professor was an Economist for Amazon before moving into academics. My Programming lecturer is a Data Scientist currently. I am not oblivious to the fact that many go into industry and my statement was taken WAY out of context.
     
  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I wonder whether you're underestimating the supply coming out of any given department and overestimating the demand required by any given department.

    But those from mid-tier schools can often find good well paying work abroad, especially in the Gulf. Although expatriation is not for everyone.
     
  15. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    The point I was making is that most Ph.Ds do not end up in the academy, whether they attend Harvard or Walden. Like you said, your professor was an economist, which may or may not have been by choice. Many settle for post-doc work with a hope of eventually earning a TT position.

    The following are examples, though not business professors, who are serving as community college faculty. I'm sure if I had the time, I'd easily find examples for you, but I don't.

    Ph.D. from Harvard (Borough of Manhattan Community College)
    https://www.bmcc.cuny.edu/faculty/ting-lei/

    Ph.D. from Duke (Folsom Lake College)
    Sean Fannon
    https://flc.losrios.edu/2020-2021-catalog/administrators-faculty-and-staff/faculty-and-staff
     
  16. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    Dr. Ting Lei is also a Professor at Columbia University in addition to this role. Sean Fannon, I am unsure of. However, like you stated, these are not business professors and therefore I am not very familiar with the market for PhD holders in fields such as sociology and psychology. Strictly speaking in regards to business schools, I would venture to say there are very few PhD holders from the Top 25 Business Schools in community colleges. The pay difference is tremendous for PhD holders in the business world with an entry level professor making $175,000+ per year depending on their area of expertise.
     
  17. JoshD

    JoshD Active Member

    I understand the academic world is competitive and that supply is likely higher than the demand. However, it is unlikely a PhD graduate from a Top 25 Business School who DOES NOT CONSCIOUSLY MAKE THE DECISION TO PURSUE A CAREER OUTSIDE OF ACADEMICS does not find a position at a reputable brick and mortar university where they are well compensated.
     
  18. smartdegree

    smartdegree New Member

    Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!!!! LOL

    Sorry for the delayed reply - busy at work trying to make more money. Thanks Chris for the insight. I get your point. I was not trying to make an argument or even starting an argment, I was just stating what people at the econjobrumors forum were saying. If that offended you in some way (as it seems based on your word choice) then I apologize - that was not my intent. You can go to that website and tell them all about the "madness" if it will make you feel better. Also, the context for me is also a bit different since I am Canadian and we don't have the plethora of universities that the US has. Like I said in my earlier posts, being an academic was my dream (it was never something I ended up doing) so your point about me not knowing much is pretty much true - thanks for pouring salt in my wounds.
     
  19. smartdegree

    smartdegree New Member

    I don't want to make this post sound like a fake "my friend says" type of post. But I really do have a friend who I admired back in undergrad who was the only one in my class to get into Harvard Business School, where he graduated with a DBA. I thought he would be on to bigger and better things, probably teach at Wharton or something. 20 years have passed and he has never gotten tenure. He has moved from one top 200 school to another every few years in various Assistant Prof posts, but he has never made tenure (or reached associate professor level). He did teach at a community college at one point as a side-gig while teaching at a top 200 in Boston.

    Pretty sure he still gets paid ok as an Assistant Prof but probably has to stress out applying for his next contract. Would I have been satisfied going his route to the academe? I think about it and I have mixed feelings on it.
     
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  20. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Oh, no. You didn't offend me. I was just pointing out that to adjunct at a certain degree level, you need a doctorate. I have no ambition for full-time academia, though I have an interview for a TT position coming up. However, I had applied back in September before I decided conclusively that I wanted to go back to working with juvenile offenders. I do want to adjunct at all degree levels and serve as chair and committee members for doctoral candidates once I finish my Ph.D.
     
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