CLEP exams vs 16 week semester courses

It's unfortunate that everyone is dismissing Saiga because of one angry sentence. That's why it's best to never display any emotion on the boards.

The fact remains that his original point was a good one and one that I strongly agree with:

There are entire Degreeinfo threads devoted to exams that students can pass without studying. There are threads devoted to how people can obtain entire bachelors degrees in as little as a month, by taking exams at an insane pace.

I could maybe understand it if somebody already had reading and/or practical experience in the subjects being examined. But posts rarely suggest that. The implication is that people are going into exams cold.

When I questioned that in earlier threads, I expected people to admit that their posts contained a bit of hyperbole, that they really did have previous experience and were just saying that they hadn't spent very much time reviewing. But that wasn't what happened. People were proudly adamant that they had had no significant exposure until they'd skimmed their study guides right before the exam (if they even did that).

People talk about how easy the literature clep is, but nobody mentions reading any literature. Nobody suggests reading books at all, only study guides. People talk about how easy the ethics clep is, but just by its nature, ethics isn't something that lends itself to multiple choice exams.

In this thread, people objected that kids on B&M campuses drink and party and DL students aren't missing anything. It's true I guess, some kids don't take their studies seriously. (I certainly didn't, back in the distant day.) But that doesn't mean that they and their DL emulators aren't short-changing themselves.

Other people argued that they would only do this with general-ed classes and wouldn't try it with major classes. But getting credit for subjects without mastering the material defeats the whole purpose of taking classes. Shrugging that it's just general-ed ignores the value that those classes might have if they were taken seriously. It's still a tremendous waste.

My biggest concern is that if it's possible to pass many of these exams with minimal preparation and with little knowledge, then that's a deadly indictment of the exams themselves. And if the assessment instruments aren't credible, then that casts a cloud over the whole concept of testing-out. That's the implication that worries me most.

 

It wasn't one sentence. It was quite a few rude posts, each one worse than the one before.

I didn't disagree entirely either, but I couldn't get past his delivery.

I didn't go into exams cold. I had experience in just about everything I took, except for Criminal Justice and Law Enforcement. I'm a Court TV/law enforcement books junkie, though, so a lot of it I knew. I just had to study to feel comfortable taking those tests because I didn't know a lot of the court case names or statistics. I knew procedure.

I saw people talking about what they had experience with, too. And even if they didn't, how is it any different than cramming for a final?

I read a LOT for all of the Lit tests I took, but most of it was all in my head so a cursory review of the appropriate Idiots Guide and some reading of books I had forgotten about did it for me.

What I really don't understand is why everyone is making education only valuable if it is done in X way. Bill you've argued in this post and others that the intrinsic value of an education overrides expediancy or anything else. That's fine. What if it is not that way for EVERYONE? Person A needs speed. Person B wants to thoroughly learn all of the material in every class. Person C wants to CLEP out of gen eds or other classes and get into classes for their career/major. That's the beauty of education- it can work for all of those people. Why does it need to be just one way for everyone?

For others like myself their real education isn't even about a degree- they learn in everyday life. I want to know something? I research it, read up on it, ask about it. I don't care if I took a class in it or have a degree in it. I like knowledge. However, I needed a degree to make more money and advance at my job, plus eventually switch career fields. So arguing that people need to physically be present for all classes even general eds isn't always correct. For some, the piece of paper is an entirely different animal than an education.
Personally myself, I don't care how someone else got their degree. They sat in a classroom for 4 years; I didn't. That's fine. They got a diploma mill certificate? They're only hurting themselves. My opinion is let others decide how they want to use their education. I KNOW the value of my schooling and how hard I worked to get it and I don't care what someone else will say about how I should have done X differently. I did what worked best for me. Isn't that all anyone should do?

 

ONE angry sentence? www.degreeinfo.com/search.php?searchid=227792

 

I finally read this entire thread and I wanted to share my thoughts...

As a matter of disclosure, I did earn almost 80 of my undergraduate credits via CLEP/DSST/ECE and I did not spend more than a week studying any particular subject.

Trying to look at this objectively, the reality is that CLEP exams are not that difficult. But that is not really the problem or the point. Earlier in this thread someone made the point that I will echo. The problem is simply that earning a bachelors degree is simply not that difficult nowadays under any circumstances. I do not have any experience to compare it with the past, but whether you take a CLEP exam, online course, or you sit in a classroom for 16 weeks and listen to a professor, most able-minded people over the age of 18 have the mental capacity to pass almost any bachelor-level course. There are obviously some exceptions, but that is at the crux of this entire thread. I don't really have a problem with it, it is what it is.

Now that I have begun graduate-level courses, I recognize the difference and the level of intelligence required to earn a masters degree. (BTW: There are exceptions to Masters degrees as well, depending on the program that you choose).

When I took B&M courses after high school I was shocked at how simple most of the work really was. My philosophy on a bachelor’s degree is this: A bachelor’s degree shows that someone has the resilience and fortitude to persevere and complete something that they are not required to complete…nothing more, nothing less. (Please don't attack me - I know that there are exceptions)

Once I came to that conclusion, the option of eliminating almost 3 years worth of that perseverance from a bachelor’s degree was a no-brainer for me. That is why I believe that testing out is completely valid and should not be diminished.

Someone else on this thread mentioned that the bachelor’s degree has become the new high school diploma and I could not agree more with that statement. From a real world employer perspective, that is how most employers view it...like it or not...

 

I'm new to the forum, but I have to comment on this completely ignorant post. You CLEP out of well over half your degree, then you claim that getting a bachelors degree is too easy? Well duh!

The truth is, under 28% of Americans hold a bachelor degree. Only around 9-10% have a masters. That means that having a bachelor degree will get you noticed more over the other 70% of people who don't have education beyond a high school degree.

Too easy eh? Have you ever taken bioethics? Medical sociology? Calculus? Advanced organic chemistry? Advanced physics? I doubt you would come out of those courses saying it was easy and that anyone could pass.

"The problem is simply that earning a bachelors degree is simply not that difficult nowadays under any circumstances."

Really? ANY circumstance? How about working full time? How about managing a full time job and children? Pretty sure those are difficult circumstances...

Sorry to sound harsh, but it's simple to say it's easy if you've never actually done the work.


PS...what school did you attend after HS? What courses were easy? Explain how they were easy. Also, tell me how demanding JSU
is. What's a typical week like at JSU? What's a typical paper like?

 

+1 for Sampson's post.

to some of the other posters:

Even a cursory review of basic documentation provides the following:

Degrees conferred

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_261.asp

percentage of population with Bachelors

2000 census

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html


"Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2000 24.4%

High school graduates, percent of persons age 25+, 2000 80.4%"

Changing Demographics and Enrollment Trends

Please read the above and other information readily available. Far more individuals attended college in the 70's (surprise) than now. To state that the bachelors degree today is equivalent to the HS diploma of yesterday doesn't make sense. Please post some citations to support the comment.

I don't have any qualms with folks utilizing shortcuts allowed by a system, more power to you. But please don't expect us to readily accept these degrees. I spent four years in the Marines to obtain the GI BIll (Viet Nam era GI Bill) and another three years completing my bachelors. My investment was significant. To expect me to readily accept a degree by examination is unrealistic. I can readily accept its legitimacy, just not its contents.

I do have a question to those aspiring to graduate school. What body of work do you present when asked to offer your undergraduate writing up as proof of scholarly accomplishment?

 

the reality is that CLEP exams are not that difficult. But that is not really the problem or the point.>>

Exactly. I think that many people have an overly romantic notion about profound learning and intellectual stimulation happening at the 100 level... it's 13th grade. It isn't supposed to be "hard" but the fact that some people find it hard speaks more to their preparation, expectations, or generic academic ability IMO.

I would think any bright teen, and certainly any motivated adult would be able to complete a CLEP (and a 100 level college class) with minimal difficulty.

For the record, I am specifically talking about taking a gen ed test, not testing out of entire degrees.

 

That is why most graduate programs require an entrance exam. My graduate program required the GMAT.

 

You made my point better in about 6 sentences than I did in 4 paragraphs...

 

This too is cursory, but look at the educational attainment of people 25 and older in 1960.

Of 99.4 million people total, 24.4 million had completed four years of high school; roughly equal to the 25% of individuals in that group who hold bachelor's degrees today.

 

I think you may have missed my point. The fact that so few Americans hold college-level degrees is a testament to the level of perseverance that is required to obtain these degrees. I am not taking the achievement of earning a degree lightly, I am simply stating that it is less a matter of intelligence and the ability to understand complex concepts than it is a matter of desire and perseverance to stick it out and make it happen.

I went out of my way, on a couple of occasions, during my post to state that there are exceptions. Your examples are the exceptions that I was referring to.

I was not referring to personal circumstances, I was referring to the medium in which credits are earned...you conveniently failed to copy the next sentence that follows the one you put on your post that states: ...whether you take a CLEP exam, online course, or you sit in a classroom for 16 weeks and listen to a professor, most able-minded people over the age of 18 have the mental capacity to pass almost any bachelor-level course. For the record, I am married with 3 children, have a full-time job and a part-time job...

What do you mean by, "never actually done the work?" I have done the work and I am now doing more work to earn an MBA.

I attended Gardner-Webb University. I took many of my liberal arts courses and I found that most did not require a deep understanding of the subject, but rather a commitment to make sure that work is completed on time to show a base-level of knowledge in the subject, most of which I did not retain 2 months after completing the courses.

The JSU MBA is very demanding. It is an AACSB accredited business school that requires the top-level of standards. My courses are all taken online, so to give you a typical week would be difficult. I have found that with my graduate courses, I do have to actually read the entire book in order to be able to pass quizzes and write A-level papers; this was not the case in my undergrad courses that I took in the traditional format. One example: For the Marketing Management course that I just completed: I had to write 6 research papers that were between 6-12 pages in length for each paper. I also had 4 exams. It was an incredibly demanding course.

 

I think you may have missed my point. The fact that so few Americans hold college-level degrees is a testament to the level of perseverance that is required to obtain these degrees. I am not taking the achievement of earning a degree lightly, I am simply stating that it is less a matter of intelligence and the ability to understand complex concepts than it is a matter of desire and perseverance to stick it out and make it happen.

Once again, you obviously never took an upper division class in college.

Too easy eh? Have you ever taken bioethics? Medical sociology? Calculus? Advanced organic chemistry? Advanced physics? I doubt you would come out of those courses saying it was easy and that anyone could pass.

I went out of my way, only a couple of occasions, during my post to state that there are exceptions. Your examples are the exceptions.

Fair enough.


I was not referring to personal circumstances, I was referring to the medium in which credits are earned...you conveniently failed to copy the next sentence that follows the one you put on your post that states: ...whether you take a CLEP exam, online course, or you sit in a classroom for 16 weeks and listen to a professor, most able-minded people over the age of 18 have the mental capacity to pass almost any bachelor-level course. For the record, I am married with 3 children, have a full-time job and a part-time job...

Fair enough.

Sorry to sound harsh, but it's simple to say it's easy if you've never actually done the work.

What do you mean by, "never actually done the work?" I have done the work and I am now doing more work to earn an MBA.

You haven't done the majority of the work though. You claim that you did almost 80 hours worth of coursework through CLEP/DSST/ECE. What classes did you actually complete?


PS...what school did you attend after HS? What courses were easy? Explain how they were easy. Also, tell me how demanding JSU
is. What's a typical week like at JSU? What's a typical paper like?

I attended Gardner-Webb University. I took many of my liberal arts courses and I found that most did not require a deep understanding of the subject, but rather a commitment to make sure that work is completed on time to show a base-level of knowledge in the subject, most of which I did not retain 2 months after completing the courses.

The JSU MBA is very demanding. It is an AACSB accredited business school that requires the top-level of standards. My courses are all taken online, so to give you a typical week would be difficult. I have found that with my graduate courses, I do have to actually read the entire book in order to be able to pass quizzes and write A-level papers; this was not the case in my undergrad courses that I took in the traditional format. One example: For the Marketing Management course that I just completed: I had to write 6 research papers that were between 6-12 pages in length for each paper. I also had 4 exams. It was an incredibly demanding course.

6-12 pages? That's it? I was writing 8-12 page papers for undergrad classes. In fact, my medical sociology course required a 14 page paper for our final and a 10-15 page paper for the midterm. Also there were weekly 1 page essays due. Criminal justice research required a 10 page paper for our midterm and a 12 page paper for our final...with numerous essays in between. I could name numerous courses which required more than a 6-12 page research paper...just for my undergrad.

Of the graduate students I know, they are required to write 15-20 page research papers...usually 4-5 per class.

 

I don't really don't want to have a pissing contest with you about what classes that I took and how hard my MBA program is. That is a little immature. I took plenty of upper-level undergrad classes and my point still stands.

The point that I am making is that there is no need to judge why, when, or how someone obtains their bachelor's degree. The bachelor's degree is a necessary evil in many professions and however you get it...the point is simply to GET IT!!!

 

Do you even know what "necessary evil" means? A necessary evil is something that is ethically questionable that must be done in order to achieve something for the greater good. How is education ethically questionable? How is requiring a person to show proof of higher education a bad thing?

But really, I'd like to know which classes you took for your undergrad. You claim it's soooo easy yet you haven't given any actual examples of classes you've taken for your undergrad.

 

No argument that many programs require a standardized entrance exam (mine did). But some, including many MA English programs, want to see examples of previous writing before making an acceptance decision. Others will request previous samples of research papers, etc...

I would caution anyone completing a degree via testing to look at future plans.

 

I kept a portfolio for grad school. I have a 12 page paper, a few shorter (2-3 page) essays, a book critique, a formal memo, an abstract, and a resume with cover letter in it. That way if anyone wanted to see what I'm familiar with, I have the whole range.

 

But, whether an individual knows (is aware of) it or not, judgment is exactly what goes in any evaluation process. Most of us would never know what the reviewer thinks (if anything) about our degrees, including the school, method of completion, GPA, subject matter, etc...

Simply stating that the degree checks the block is not giving an individual the best opportunity to be the individual selected in a competitive process.

Therefore, the school, the method, where completed, subject, etc... of earning a degree is relevant to the measure that a resume is weak or strong in other areas. The stronger the other aspects of your resume the less important the degree.

 

Good planning. I would recommend you also get a professor's critical review of your body of work if you are headed to that MA in English. (or better the MFA)

 

I'm not sure about doing an MFA, but I've been looking at NSULA's M.A. in English, and I think it may end up being the second Masters I do. I'm having my GRE score sent there when I take it in March, just in case.

 

Business Strategy
Managerial Accounting
Operations Management
Calculus

Those are a few...

A necessary evil can also be used to refer to something that someone may not want to do, but that they realize they need to do in order to get what they want...