Choice between California Coast Univ & Columbia Southern Univ MBA programs

No, it has NOT been articulated. You're point is that NA is good enough for some people. That's not the same as describing a compelling reason for choosing NA over RA.

We have the downside to such a choice. What is the clear upside? What is the advantage gained that cannot be gained also from an RA option?

 

NO, because the question is relevant. It isn't OT, therefore, the thread isn't hijacked.

Wishing the issue away doesn't make it disappear.

 

But what is the advantage in such a choice? It can be accepted as an axiom that RA is more accepted than NA, so what is the advantage to choosing a school that has such a downside? What is the offsetting factor that makes it, on balance, a good choice? This isn't an "RA is better than NA" question. (That is already demonstrably true.) But no one seems to be able to say why these schools are a BETTER choice for some people. I'd just like to hear it.

This is just plain wrong. Holding a degree from an NA school can get you refused for jobs, promotions, and admission to higher degree programs. Or it may not. Individual situations will vary, of course. But the larger truth looms. It is "pretentiousness." It is a reality one should deal with when making this decision.

Not true. DETC's survey of graduates reveals some significant non-acceptance each time it is conducted and published. And there are sooo many situations where a degree from an NA school will not be accepted.

This is misleading. The vast majority of those are from non-degree-awarding schools. And volume doesn't tell us anything. It is the qualitative factors in this decision that matter, and that apply to each person individually and in varying degrees.

Yes. My research, John Bear's research, and DETC's research all show this. Plus the tons of anecdotal examples where such degrees are not accepted.

This is misleading, too. DETC has fewer than three decades of experience accrediting schools awarding the bachelor's degree or higher. In 1980, there was exactly one (Grantham). Why is the simple truth so hard to accept? Can't both (lower acceptability and increasing popularity) be true? The facts seem to support this.

No one's talking about "defending" people's choices. What I'm asking, simply, is why someone would choose a school with a form of accreditation that is significantly lacking. What is the upside? You can wish all you want that these limitations don't exist, but they do. EVEN DETC ACKNOWLEDGES THIS IN ITS FAQ! You can't ignore that!

That's a convenient stance to take, but it isn't true and isn't relevant. There are many unrecognized accreditors whose accreditation is worthless. There are other, recognized accreditors, whose recognition comes with significant limitations. We're talking about accreditation and schools, not what individuals do with their lives.

This is a faulty dilemma. There are RA schools that have been offering DL for a lot longer than ANY DETC school. And if it's about money, fine. You get what you pay for.

Hey, that's great. And I know there are tons of success stories out there. But since you're posting under an alias, this is difficult to prove independently. Would you share with us the three schools that have accepted you as an instructor based upon your DETC-accredited degrees, as well as the law school you mention? These examples of acceptance would be great news to this community.

 

Well, my experience is that in the short time I had a DETC degree I hit a wall with my state's law enforcement commissioning board. This hurt pretty bad.....do a search for my user name and get the whole story.

My experience is that DETC schools are better than nothing by a long stretch, but there are limitations. Especially in state government work in Texas and Louisiana. But if you are 100% sure that a DETC school is the perfect fit, then do it.

But the money argument doesn't fly far. Peru State College, LSU, Chadron State and some others have lower tuition rates than most DETC programs. And the DETC programs that ARE cheaper are only so by a few dollars an hour.

I have nothing against DETC and I find the RA NA thing to be ignorance on most peoples part when they discriminate against DETC schools, however life isn't fair and the only battle I'm willing to fight is my own, not DETC's....So I recommend going with the most widely accepted degree regardless of whether it's fair or not unless you are championing some cause.

 

Rich,

You seem to be focused on finding a reason why some people select NA schools over RA schools. The reality is that for some people that's not important. Maybe it is about the money, or the schools' reputation, or the quality of their customer service; perhaps is the delivery method, who knows, maybe it is a little bit of everything.

You cannot expect everyone to look at this whole thing through your eyes. If I'm not mistaken you're in academia, so getting a degree from a RA school is very important to you because that's generally what is required to get a teaching job or a promotion. But for others, not involved with academia or in a job that requires a RA degree, getting a degree from an institution they like and enjoy is just fine.

You understand that we are not talking about quality here, as there are excellent schools in both the NA and RA arena. And as for utility, let each person decide what works for them, and let them define success in their own terms.

As I said in another post, school gives us the tools to succed but it doesn't make us succesful.

So there it is Rich, there need not be a specific reason. It is about freedom of choice and what works for you, or me, or the next person.



Pepe

 

In fact it HAS been articulated very well but obviously you are resistant to the feedback. The examples I provided clearly delineated some very "compelling reason(s)" for individuals to select NA over RA because it met their unique needs and personal and professional goals. Let us be frank Rich, you do not determine the criteria that defines what is a "compelling reason" for any person in regard to selecting NA over RA or vice versa. This is an individual decision based on each person's unique situation. Therefore what constitutes a "compelling reason" for you may apply to some but not to others. In fact you are confusing your strong beliefs and perspective with established criteria and this level of thinking does not apply to the selection of NA or RA degree programs because many individuals have successfully utilized NA degrees in myriad job related and academic contexts in spite of your protestations.

 

Rich,

I'm a certified insturctor at my local community college, I'm an adjunct instructor for Henley-Putman University (DETC) and Aspen University (DETC), I'm an applicant for a adjunct position with a state univeristy (which will remain unnamed at this time) and will be pursuing an Executive Juris Doctorate (EJD) at William Howard Taft University.

 

There is a bottomline regardless of the fact that RA degrees are considered the gold standard in the US. And that is no matter if everything you state above is totally accurate the fact is that each poster needs to evaluate their unique and specific situation, needs and goals and formulate their educational plans and decisions as to whether to attend an NA or RA degree program based on this assessment NOT on the general findings of a study or doctoral dissertation. Yes, we agree that RA is generally the way to go BUT not for everyone and not in every situation.

 

That's all well and good, but at the time I enrolled at Penn Foster College (then Education Direct), I didn't qualify for any federal financial aid at all. According to Uncle Sam, I made too much money. It's funny...it certainly didn't SEEM like I was making "too much" money.

 

But all of that can be had at an RA school, without the limitations NA brings.[quote}

You cannot expect everyone to look at this whole thing through your eyes.[/quote]

I do not. In fact, in my eyes, DETC accreditation is pretty good. But I'm asking for OTHERS' reasons for preferring DETC-accredited schools over RA ones. No one seems willing to articulate the advantages that outweigh the proven disadvantages. (I think there is a real reason no one is willing to talk about, but I'd rather wait to hear it from others. Hint: It has something to do with the fact that only one school has first operated as DETC-accredited and then gone on to RA.)

 

Sorry, but saying it is so doesn't make it so. Drop the word "compelling." Name one reason OF ANY MAGNITUDE that makes an NA school a better choice. Every reason offered thus far--and that's been several years now--can be replicated at RA schools.

These aren't my beliefs, and it is intellectually dishonest to call them that. And I'm not protesting anything, nor am I denying even one of the many success stories out there. That's missing the point. Research--and DETC's own words on its website--clearly establish the limitations of such degrees. I'd just like to hear anything that is uniquely advantageous to such a choice. What makes it a better choice than RA, one that overcomes the limitations that are uncontestable? (Again, not my opinion, but the results of research conducted by John Bear, the DETC, and me.)

 

Thank you very much. I truly appreciate it. May I observe that only one of the examples you offer--the unnamed community college, is RA. I would expect NA schools like Putman ("Putnam," actually), Taft, and Aspen to accept degrees from other DETC-acredited schools. Also, we don't know the outcome of the other--also unnamed--RA school's decision.

Again, thanks for sharing that info. But it doesn't support anyone's contention that degrees from DETC-accredited schools are useful at RA schools. (Such examples exist, of course, but they seem rare.)

 

Okay, under what circumstances is an NA school a better choice than an RA school?

 

No one makes "too much money" to get an unsubsidized Stafford loan, IIRC. Such a loan doesn't have to be paid back until after graduation, although "unsubsidized" means interest will accrue.

 

Rich,

No offense (and I'm really not trying to pick a fight here), but when did you perform the research for your dissertation? I have been on this forum for a couple of years now and you have always had the "PhD" after your name. If your dissertation was completed more than a few years ago, then perhaps some of the findings have since changed. What I mean here is that perhaps employers and academia are now more accepting of DETC degrees (and graduates from these schools). Just a thought. Who knows, maybe they're even less accepting of DETC now.

- Tom

P.S. Perhaps one advantage to attending a DETC school is that perhaps there is a unique curriculum and/or major that is not available elsewhere from an online RA school. For example, Harrisson Middleton University (DETC) offers a fairly unique (at least for a DL school) curriculum based on the "Great Books" concept. Another unique aspect of Harrison Middleton, is that they offer MA degrees in Natural Science and Imaginative Literature (in addition to BA and MA degrees in the Humanities, which of course is more common among online RA schools). Please let me know if there is an RA school that offers a similar curriculum (e.g. Great Books) and degrees (MA in Natural Science and Imaginative Literature) that are offered 100% online.

 

An answer to that question would involve lots of variables, wouldn't it? Which "NA" accreditor? Which school? Which program offered by that school? For which student? For what purpose?

I agree with you that in general RA schools make better choices than "NA" schools (or state-licensed schools for that matter). But when we turn from abstractions about accreditors in general to considering individual cases, then it's easy to imagine a non-RA school being a fine option, even the best available option, for a particular student in a particular situation.

A student does need to be aware of any utility defects that might be associated with a non-RA choice and probably should be able to produce some counter-balancing positives to justify the choice. But those reasons are going to be different in each instance.

I don't know if the NY Regents count as an "NA accreditor", but they aren't RA at any rate. Rockefeller University still somehow manages to come in at #30 in those Shanghai worldwide university rankings. (The Nobel Prizes probably didn't hurt.) That's an extreme example, sure, but it does challenge that "any" of yours.

Why would a graduate student want to do a Ph.D. at Rockefeller? Perhaps the university hosts a research group that's a leader in the student's area of dissertation interest.

Tom's DETC-accredited Harrison Middleton/CHUMSCI example is considerably less exalted but nevertheless persuasive. I'm in my 50's and am interested in DL largely for personal intellectual reasons. DL gives me the opportunity to pursue my interests without the necessity of moving to a different city and becoming a full-time student. (Assuming that conventional young-academic-careerist oriented graduate programs would even admit somebody like me.) So, accreditation utility isn't really a huge issue for me, but program content and interest is. That's critical, it's the whole point.

For a third example, take CA-approved Dharma Realm Buddhist University. For some students at least, the opportunity to undertake the academic study of Buddhism in a monastic-practice setting might balance the utility defects of a state-approved degree. Those defects might not even be very large if the student intends to use the degree for personal growth, in a temple or religious-education context that already knows the program, or perhaps as a prelude to ordaining. It might even be preferrable to an RA religious studies degree where Buddhism is an arm-chair matter, a weak poorly-supported specialization, or not even addressed at all. DRBU is for specialized tastes, obviously, but some persuasive arguments can be made for it.

 

2003. Not so long ago. And remember, DETC themselves acknowledge this fact, and are campaigning against it.

The unique curriculum argument, especially at HMU, is a good one, but a very narrow one. Most people don't undertake such a unique degree. For example, why would someone take a CCU MBA over one from RA Amberton?

I've already offered up the "niche" idea, but I wonder about the people--the vast majority, I think--that pursue degrees also available (at similar costs) from RA schools.

 

Just for the record, I think the Ed.D. at HMU looks like a lot of fun, and a great way to get grounded in the history of higher education (and a lot of other stuff). It is the kind of degree program that is unique.

But if you choose a degree from a DETC-accredited school that can also be obtained at an RA school, what factors would preponderate, compelling you to take the NA option? I think I know, but I'm waiting for someone to say it.

 

My two cents:

1. In general terms, RA is preferred to NA.

2. There are times when NA is preferred. For example, ABHE and ATS, both NA, are frequently preferred to RA in many church organizations and in much of religious academia.

3. Sometimes, NA schools are less expensive than their RA counterparts and can be used as an affordable stepping stone toward the RA degree. For example, Penn Foster is NA and is extremely affordable. They are a great option for the person looking to acquire affordable, ACE evaluated credit for transfer toward a RA degree.

4. As a second degree, perhaps earned more for personal satisfaction than for employment or academic need, RA or NA doesn't matter.

Pug