California Coast Iniversity degree

I'll chime in here on the RA vs. NON-RA theme. Having previously served in the ministry, I have had the opportunity to work with ministers that graduated from Bob Jones University. By all rights these individuals seemed competent enough (but were VERY close-minded ). Whenever the subject of accreditation arose or the utility of accreditation would spring up---these guys would almost have a fit defending their degrees. I used to think...why endure the hassle? Certainly if you want to work as a pastor in ultra-conservative churches, particularly those in a 500 mile radius of South Carolina, then a Bob Jones degree would probably do you well. If, for whatever reason, you found yourself outside the Land O'Fundieville, or you found yourself voted out of a church and needing to find a job---your Bob Jones degree would be HIGHLY questioned.

I saw this first hand when was on staff a Baptist church in California. One of my friends had a non-RA degree (sorry don't remember from where) and tried to enroll in a 5th year program to become a teacher. He was flatly rejected due to the fact his degree was non-RA.

So to agree with the oft stated sentiment expressed here: if you have the means to earn an RA degree at whatever level...why not do it? Why leave doubt in anyone's mind as to the validity or utility of your degree?

On the other hand, I have always had an interest in word origins...so if anyone knows where I can complete a non-RA PhD in Etymology...

Regards,
Steven King

 

Several including Levicoff defend the quality of certain non-accredited, religious programs such as Moody's (very strong reputation) and BJU's. Some of these schools object on religious grounds the curricular influence of secular accrediting bodies. (And of course, degree mills use this as an excuse.)

But apart from these and a few, specialized secular programs, I'll give a practical, engineer's view of these type discussions: it is easy to prop up state-approved programs (and iffy non-US programs) by citing standards that are not enforced, BUT argue with the trashcan in which one finds one's resume. If the job description requires a degree, I personally would not take the time to try to figure out if someone with an unaccredited degree had done any work for the degree. I freely admit that a few do plenty of work, but there are not enough hours in the day to investigate it when other candidates do not have this issue. It is much easier to write "Not Interested" on the resume or toss it into the round file.

On a side note, I attended a state university near BJU. In the tie-dyed seventies, it was not hard to spot BJU students in their white shirts and jackets on Friday/Saturday nights doing field work on the state campus, for which they received more than their share of harrassment.

 

Just for clarification, a search of Moody's website reveals:
MBI’s Bachelor of Science in Biblical Studies degree is accredited by both the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools and the Accrediting Association of Bible Colleges.

Steven King

 

Concerning the comment that several people have made that open-book examinations are not "work", I just want to say that every examination in every RA graduate course that I have ever taken was open-book. Certainly that seems to be the norm in humanities-type subjects.

For example I took a graduate course in Kant at SFSU. We were allowed to bring Kant's 'Critiques' as well as the standard commentaries to our essay examination. And that wouldn't have been any help at all to anyone that wasn't already prepared to discuss the issues raised.

 

I addressed this on another thread when I defended some of the CA-approved schools. For some reason, nobody responded to me there, so I'll repeat my point here.

Consider Dharma Realm Buddhist University. CA-approved but not RA. Among its faculty is a Dr. Ron Epstein, a Ph.D. in Buddhist Studies from UC Berkeley. (I took classes from him at SF State.) A real advantage of studying at DRBU would be the opportunity to work with ths gentleman and with other people like him.

What's more, real scholarly work takes place at DRBU. They host the Buddhist Text Translation Society, for example. Association with them would make it possible to participate in those kind of activities.

But not everyone's life revolves around academia. While a DRBU degree would not meet with much acceptance in most of higher education (a more avant-garde school like CIIS may be an exception), it is probably pretty well accepted in California's Buddhist community.

In that sense, DRBU might be similar to many of those peculiar M.Div.s out there that seem intended largely for ordination into a particular Christian denomination. In other words, it is intended to serve a particular kind of student in a particular community.

Obviously this point of mine doesn't really address DBAs from CCU. But I do think that non-RA schools can serve niche markets when they are able to demonstrate their bonafides in some other way.

 

Bill often returns to this point, and with good reason. There is a huge difference between a school that sits on the fringe because of the subject matter it teaches, and those that simply do not measure up. (Of course, even some "fringe" schools like Saybrook and CIIS have been accredited.)

There was a time when there was no practical difference between a degree from Walden and one from California Coast. Back when almost no DL graduate schools were accredited, many alternatives were being tried out. But like natural selection, the ineffective paradigms were weeded out, while the effective ones were sustained. DL schools that cut it went on to accreditation; the rest either died out or continued on as the rest of the academic world left them behind.

There is no need anymore for unaccredited schools serving a wide range of students via DL. Even the best ones (like CCU and Cal Pacific) are little more than a process for people to do less-than-standard work to earn a degree that will have little value beyond its ability to be mistaken for a real degree.

There was a time when real and serious alternatives to traditional academia were being pondered. Exploring them had to be done outside the control of the very staid and traditional regional associations. That simply isn't true (or nearly as true) anymore. When Fielding, Walden, Union, Sarasota, Jones International, Saybrook, CIIS, Touro International, Northcentral, and many others can "get in," is there really a need--or an excuse--for unaccredited schools offering similarly-titled degrees? No. They're inferior degrees from inferior schools, and no amount of rationalization can change that.

I use to be a staunch enemy and critic of the RAs. I'm still no fan. Twenty years ago I would have been very open to doing a degree from a good, unaccredited school. (Columbia Pacific or Clayton would've been my choice back then.) But not today.

Rich Douglas

 

This is directed to Rich and Bill Dayson. I agree with what both of you said and I made a more moderate statement in my next post (about BJU) in which I said basically the same thing, using the modifier "except for religious and specialty programs." Bill's example of the Buddhist studies program certainly falls into one if not both categories. I got a little heavy-handed trying to contrast Dr. Dave's use of "Dr." in his screen name while claiming that he was only interested in the knowledge. With the exceptions noted, I reject the equivalence of accredited and unaccredited degrees. I have the right to do so just as Dr. Dave has the legal right to call himself Dr., in 49 of 50 states.

 

I propose giving Dr. Dave the last word and letting this thread die in the obscurity that it deserves, having covered the same ground for the umpteenth time on AED and degreeinfo.

 

"I have the right to do so just as Dr. Dave has the legal right to call himself Dr., in 49 of 50 states."

Oregon THE progressive state.

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

First a quick correction to previous posts above: I have the right to call my "doctor" in all 50 states, not 49, since Oregon fully recognizes/allows the California Pacific DBA. That aside, I appreciate the invitation to have the "last word" (although that likely will not be the case). I would summarize as follows:

1) Anyone looking for a BA/BS program should always go the RA route--period. The same can be said for almost all masters programs.

2) For doctoral degrees, one should certainly first explore the traditional RA options if there are any within reasonable proximity (as I did and as explained earlier).

3) Given the lack of a proximate program (again, as happened to me), one should next look at nontraditional RA programs such as Nova Southeastern, Walden, Fielding, etc. to see if the degree program, learning model, price, culture, etc. are a good match. In addition to dialogue with Admissions and the faculty liaison, all alumni references should be called and checked thoroughly.

4) If there is still a poor match given the non-exhaustive criteria in #3, the prospective student ought to next consider CA state-approved doctoral programs (as DETC does not yet accredit programs at that level). The best of the schools, usually three or four, should be compared/contrasted on a matrix using the catalogues, dialogues with the schools, a check of the most recent approval status through the state, and the alumni checks. The chosen school's requirements in this scenario should parallel those in an RA school as closely as possible. For example, if a doctorate is granted for coursework only, it is probably not a respectable program, at least in my opinion. Others may disagree. But I deeply believe that a research project is de rigeur for any doctorate.

While I hear and acknowledge the contrary arguments stated by others, I staunchly hold to the belief the the older person in mid or late career, interested in a professional doctorate rather than the PhD, and wishing to remain in the business world rather than intending to transition to academe, has more lattitude than younger people in the early stages of their careers. In the vast majority of cases, the older executive does not need any degree beyond the existing MBA (nor do companies demand or reward the DBA) to continue to be a successful practitioner. Thus, the DBA can always be a very personal validation of one's life work and also be a life-long learning endeavor to enhance knowledge per se. Can that be done by taking books out the library? For some, perhaps. Others prefer a more formalized approach to learning.

I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas in this thread and respect everyone's opinions, even though this is obviously wide disagreement on this intractable or stubborn issue. People have been very kind here and have resisted flaming, which I greatly appreciate too. Thanks for allowing me state my point of view and to share some of my background to illustrate my perspective on the question!

 

Actually, Oregon recognizes only institutions accredited by an agency recognized by the US Dept of Ed and/or
CHEA. As an unaccredited institution, California Pacific would have to apply for a special evaluation to be conducted by Oregon
state authorities. To date, it would appear that California Pacific has not done so.
Just because the school is not on the Oregon's "banned school" list, it does not
mean that it is approved by the state.
Oregon ODA's website points out that their posted list is not exhaustive.
Still and all, I always thought well of
California Pacific despite its limited utility.

DM

 

I have a problem here and that is using a doctoral degree as a means to validate life's work. Just be happy with your life. An earned doctorate is a scholarly pursuit and life's work does not require a justification through a doctorate. If so, we should just award an honorary doctorate to someone whenever they retire -- forget about the gold watch.

John

 

But for $200.00 we can give them the degree AND the gold watch.

------------------
Howard Rodgers

 

A potential new market for the mills. Retirement awards in the form of the honorary degree and for the amount typically charged they could afford the gold watch too.

John

 

With the additional explanation just given, I'm admittedly back to the 49-state model again (ignoring the U.S. Territories). Indeed, I was referring to the "prohibited list" and was unaware of the related regulations in OR for degree recognition. It's like Abe Lincoln used to say, "You can't please all of them all of the time."

 

I hear you, and did not mean to imply that the older executive, in the most practical sense, does not usefully and productively employ the knowledge gained from DBA studies in his/her daily work--an unfortunate error of omission on my part. I overemphasized knowledge for knowledge's sake, while not addressing the application of theory in the field--the purpose of the DBA and the scholarly practitioner.

 

Drwetsch: I hear you. I didn't mean to imply that the late career executive earns a DBA as knowledge for the sake of knowledge only, ignoring the practical utility of that knowledge, i.e., the application of theory in the field. While the PhD is usually a practicing scholar, the DBA assumes the role of scholarly practitioner. Thanks for pointing out the omission.

 

Rationalization attempt: Without the good, unaccredited schools offering a choice, RAs could regress to where they were 20 years ago. The more choices the better.

Gary

 

I agree with this, in the past. For example, when David Chigos (Ph.D., USIU) wanted to educate executives and supervisors at General Dynamics in San Diego during the early 1970's, he approached San Diego State University about starting a night-school MBA program. The told him no, if the students were serious about getting graduate degrees they should leave their jobs and come on campus.

David started his own school instead, originally keeping the student records in the truck of his Cadillac. From those modest beginnings, National University grew to become the second largest private university in California, setting up shop in Mission Valley, right under the collective noses of SDSU. Oh, and you can now enroll in SDSU's Executive MBA program while maintaining your career. No kidding.

Rich Douglas

P.S.: I don't think nontraditional, unaccredited schools are putting this kind of pressure on traditional academia anymore. There is nothing unaccredited schools are doing that isn't also being done by accredited DL schools and programs. That's why their contributions and degrees are marginal, or even irrelevant (except for the scandal-causing frauds out there).

 

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From personal experience I know that Cal Coast are, (from an ethics and compliance point of view) beyond reproach.

They are truly solid.

CFr