Betsy DeVos’s Gut Punch to Defrauded Students

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Bruce, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

  2. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Well, yeah. The article would be improved if it would avoid the term "diploma mill" in that one sentence in the middle and just stick to factual (and damning) characterizations, as in the rest of the article. Whether Corinthian schools deserve to be called "mills" (mostly they didn't, by the more accurate definition we use here) doesn't make a difference on this issue. Fraudulent reporting and recruiting practices are what injured students and did Corinthian in.

    But then again, DeVos was appointed to her position by a fraud "university" operator, so it's no wonder she's soft on fraud. Corinthian "enrollment counsellors" are more ethical versions of "TrumpU" "instructors".
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Degree mill: Any school less prestigious, however slightly, than the one from which the person describing it graduated.
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Very often accurate! :D
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  5. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    (we have the "like" feature now- whoo!)

    Ok, so I get the outrage, and I personally feel like Corinthian were predators...yet, I don't think that "not" discharging student loans shows favoritism towards an entire industry (for-profit education). It's not the normal course that ANYONE would have their student loans discharged, and so the opposite is true. For her "to" discharge student loans would present a favoritism.
    I can't see why anyone would think her position is unreasonable [ they will get a portion of relief based on their current income. ] since the overwhelming argument used to explain why /how Corinthian was fraudulent is that graduates couldn't get jobs and find employment in their field. Clearly, if that were true, then there is nothing to complain about since current income (zero?) would result in relief. It can't be both ways, either they were employable or not. [In the end, the useless degrees did not help, and sometimes even hurt, graduates’ job prospects.]
    The author is very emotionally charged up here, but there is always the question of consumer's responsibility too, and we can't treat every adult as incapable of making the decision about where to spend their time and money.
    [DeVos finally announced a resolution last week, approving 12,900 “defense to repayment” applications and denying 8,600 others.] Seriously? That's a win, people! There are senior citizens who have their social security garnished for failure to pay student loan debt. [The Education Department will now compare the earnings of an applicant for debt relief to the average earnings of students who took similar vocational courses. So if you trained at Corinthian as a medical technician, the agency will look at your salary compared to other medical technicians, and deliver relief on a sliding scale. Students making 50 percent of the average rate of their program will get 50 percent of their debt cancelled; those making 60 percent will get 40 percent cancelled; and so on.] This, in my not so humble opinion, is brilliant and exceptionally FAIR.
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  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    The millennial generation's idea of "fair" means that everyone gets everything paid for by the government, which they call "free".
    SpeedyAlchemist likes this.
  7. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    So, ugh, graduates who worked harder at finding jobs, or just interview better, DESPITE their discredited Everest diplomas, therefore deserve less compensation for being victims of fraudulent recruiting? I fail to see the FAIRness in this. I guess DeVos does have some form of an argument based on different amount of "harm" different students encountered, but I wouldn't call it all-caps FAIR.

    To be fair (or FAIR), Corinthian schools were far less predatory than Trump University. Maybe their principals deserve jobs in the Administration.
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Fair would be to acknowledge that Trump University was no more an actual university than the School of Hard Knocks.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  9. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Without getting political, I know many millennials who simply got the globalist view.
    They are connected to WWW more than other generations.
    So if taxes are paid on many levels why can't the money be allocated to Federal and state-sponsored education like in some EU countries for example.
    The education is free and funded by the taxpayers.
    I'm a conservative so obviously, we argue about this but their views are highly affected by the liberal lead higher education establishments.
    It's interesting that some of the millennials who attended or attending a more conservative education providers have much-reduced entitlement views.
  10. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Trump University was a rather ordinary confidence fraud perpetrated by and on behalf of the current President, if that's what you mean. While it was not a "university", it did fraudulently claim to provide an educational program and future economic benefit - a claim similar to Corinthian's, but much more of a bare-faced lie. Comparing it to the "School of Hard Knocks" ignores the actual perp at the center of it. Other countries have sad experience of electing widely known criminals for President (more than one was aided by the mercenary named Paul Manafort), but I guess a large minority of American electorate wished to try it for themselves.
  11. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    There's a distance between wanting a universal access to education and not wanting to be defrauded, like in this case.

    P. S. Government-funded education worked quite well for both of us, did it not? (Lerner is my fellow product of a (post-)Soviet education system. Which had its glaring flaws, but did produce passable technical people).
  12. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    As I explained, it is fair BECAUSE as a matter of course in this country, we do not EVER discharge student loans for unemployment. EVER.
  13. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Well, I have a different view than yours.

    TU was education company that ran a real estate training program from 2005 until 2010. It did not confer college credit, grant degrees, or grade its students.,

    I hold vendor certifications from vendor university. I knew nothing about Trump university but the first thing that came to my mind is that it must be some kind of school that teaches business real estate deals etc. Again I never checked in to it but not all providers with university name in it are actually universities.
    Many Vendors and High Tech companies create a nice stream of revenue in support of their "University" my certifications earned based on attending a number of weeks of training classes for each cert and passing proctored Prometric centers exams. One day of training is around 2,000 USD. So for 5 days my employer paid 10 grand.
    Now in my understanding, Trump University was not offering more than some financial training like other vendors, high-tech companies do. They capitalized on the Trump success story and his name, for name recognition and customers thought that it may carry some weight as well, that they are learning from top experts.

    I don't think Corintian defrauded students. It's like the commercial on tv adds that if you try this bubblegum everything around will turn in to magical forest or that cologne will attract all the most beautiful persons etc.

    Private for profits serve a need for certain populations, I agree that a level of oversight is needed beyond accreditation, more on consumer protection area.
    State licensing should depend on it. And if anybody dropped the ball here is the state consumer protection agencies.
    Indeed I'm from a country that doesn't exist, Soviet Union but my birth state and Ukranian city were kind to us. I had a good childhood.
    The US was kind to us to allow us to immigrate and settle here.
    If one wants to attend state universities and they qualify for a state grant their education is almost free. My nephew had a free ride offered at state univ but he ended up with 150 K in loans because he went to the top, not for profit private university.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  14. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    My son got a pair of Air Jordan sneakers that were defective. That's obviously Michael Jordan's fault, not Nike, because he lent his name to a product manufactured by someone else. :rolleyes:
  15. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    It promised to teach proven real techniques, by leading experts personally recruited by The Donald, and a chance to meet the man himself. Instead, "students" got some randos high-pressure selling them on "mentorship" to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. And, oh, a photo with the cardboard cutout of Trump. Yay.

    Well, some regulators disagreed. That's why they closed.

    Yah... I'm a bit more comfortable saying I'm from Ukraine. "Soviet Union" is dead and gone, and good riddance. Hope that the "Russian World" phantom will follow it sooner rather than later.
    In any case, it's not as if the concept of public higher ed is foreign to you, no?

    Not me, I'm Canadian... but yeah, nothing to complain about (either countries). I'd like to think I hold my end of the bargain in terms of employment and taxation, and I bet so do you. And so do most immigrants.

    [/QUOTE]If one wants to attend state universities and they qualify for a state grant their education is almost free. My nephew had a free ride offered at state univ but he ended up with 150 K in loans because he went to the top, not for profit private university.[/QUOTE]
    My sister didn't have access to loans but got full ride athletic scholarship, at age 15. This is not the same as having college education available to anyone capable of learning, regardless of parent's income status. Again, I'm not calling for abolishing tuition tomorrow, but the concept is serious enough to merit real discussion, not snide dismissal. Especially not from someone who did attend school for free up to their Master's, like you and I did.
  16. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    If Michael recorded ads claiming each sneaker is hand-crafted at his home in Illinois by hand-picked Italian craftsmen and personally inspected and guaranteed by His Airness himself, and instead just let the manufacturing be shipped to Nike's factory in China, yeah, he'd be liable. Also, if his company lured people to events promising a personal appearance by Michael Jordan, and instead give them a photo with his cardboard cutout and pressured them to max out their credit to buy $15,000 "limited edition" Air Jordans (also made in China and painted gold with toxic pigment), it would better resemble Trump University "experience".

    What happened to this board? You guys used to be tougher on fraud.
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I still am. Lock 'em up! ALL of 'em.

    I still have my quite impressive freebie folder from Trump U. - part of their ad campaign. The cover features a considerably-younger portrait of Mr. Trump at the doors of "Trump University." Perhaps it will have souvenir value someday. Or not.

  18. It's as if they went to a government school or something that failed to teach them that government does not create wealth; it only redistributes it.
  19. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I think I've made it clear that I'm not exactly a Trump Administration fan. So what I say should really be viewed in that context.

    Personally? I think the prior administration was having a grand old time scapegoating for-profit colleges. Are there bad operators? Yeah, of course, as in any industry. But for-profit education goes way back in this country and doesn't really deserve the negative reputation it has taken on, in my opinion. Corinthian was shady. And Corinthian collapsed. But most of their schools live on. They're now ostensibly non-profit, charging the same fees and operated by the same executives. Does them being non-profit now make them all better?

    The problem with trying to vilify a corporate structure is that you have to be somewhat consistent about it otherwise you look like a giant hypocrite. Take Keiser University, for example. "Blah blah blah, it's for-profit and it's evil." So it transfers to a non-profit. "Hey! They only did that to avoid our scrutiny! Look, here's how the Keiser family is still making money off of the school!"

    It's inconsistent. Is the corporate structure bad? Or is it that a small group of people can make money from it that is bad? If the latter, then why aren't we turning our sites on the seven figure salaries of some University Presidents?

    At the end of the day, there's just little public sympathy for a lot of these folks. You spent $30k on a useless associates from Everest? Well, the typical news reader likely spent $100k on a useless degree from a small liberal arts college that boasts a USNWR regional rating, if they're lucky, and low faculty to student ratios but that no employer outside of a 25 mile radius has ever heard of. Do they get relief too?

    Because kids, and this is a tough pill for some folks to swallow, any school below the elite and well known schools lies to entice you to spend your federal financial aid money with them. They lie about average graduate salaries. They lie about placement. They lie about why their program is the best option for you. King's College (Wilkes-Barre, PA) actively lied to me years ago by telling me that their average business school graduate was making $40k not mentioning that most of their business school graduating class was hired for 1-2 year term jobs by the college. After that, you were on your own. The University of Scranton assured me that 58% of their psychology graduates went on to graduate studies. They didn't mention, however, that the vast majority of them did not go on study psychology at the graduate level. The bulk of grads stayed at Scranton and enrolled in Masters programs in Counseling (School and Mental Health, primarily). Their marketing literature led one to believe that over half of their graduates were going into PsyD or PhD programs based on very carefully crafted wording.

    This isn't new. This isn't unique to for-profit schools. And no one is walking out of a university with "skills" unless they majored in one of the very few programs that have practical components (e.g. nursing, some engineering etc).

    But like everything else, someone decided that this needs to be a liberals vs conservatives issue. It needn't be. Even if Hillary won the White House, there would still be the most unpleasant reality for the likes of Dick Durbin that his now fellow Democratic Senator from Illinois has a PhD from Capella. And didn't Bill sit on the board of Laureate Education for a while?

    It isn't a political issue. It's an issue of human nature that is often politicized.

    I left a for-profit university, two actually, with very little debt. The majority of my debt is associated with my associate's degree from a Jesuit university. Do I get relief? No. I borrowed money and then I repaid it. I could have gone cheaper. I should have gone cheaper. Had I earned that associate's at a community college I would have had less than $10k in debt total. That isn't CTU's fault. That isn't Scranton's fault. That's my fault. I give myself a pass for being 18 and not realizing I should shop around. That doesn't absolve me of my debts, however.
    fourdegrees11 and SteveFoerster like this.
  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

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