Atheist, Humanist, and Agnostic-Friendly Programs

There's a 12-year-old Reddit thread "IAMA atheist working on a Master of Divinity degree at Liberty University, AMA".

The big question to my mind no one seemed to ask is how the poster answered the divinity school admissions questionnaire and how Liberty responded in turn. A 2008 version of the questionnaire notes "they reserve the right to ensure that their students meet what it considers to be basic, Christian principles of Scripture." It seems likely details of the questionnaire been updated since 2008. The division is no longer called the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, but now the Rawlings School of Divinity. There are current links to a Rawlings School of Divinity Admissions Questionnaire but it appears a Liberty account is required to see it. An interested student could ask an admissions counselor.

The OP in the AMA thread might have answered the questionnaire obliquely. They posted, "inside of class they think I'm Christian. A really liberal Christian, but Christian none-the-less. […] If you let people at the school know you are not Christian they WILL kick you out (after some counseling, of course)." (Remember that this comment is specific to the MDiv program, not to general-market programs at Liberty.)

 

There are a lot of good reasons to study religion from a secular perspective. Like it or not, religion is historical. (This is 100% different from saying that religious books are historical.) As in, you cannot completely divorce historical events from the cultural context in which they occurred. Culture includes religion. Studying religious beliefs can give insight into why certain events occurred. You don't have to believe that there was literally a divine being who called himself Jesus and who lived in the 1st century CE to study the beliefs of the people who do believe that. Why did the Crusades occur, for instance? Religious context is hugely important. You can't simply say "them people be crazy, yo" and expect to be taken seriously.

 

I don't: (1) Say that in general or (2) Expect to be taken seriously. In years past, I collected and read a few books about the historical Jesus. I admire Him, but think of him as a man. I get the vibe his Divine status was ascribed to him by his followers. There were other itinerant Jewish preachers around Jesus' time who were 'casting out devils' etc and told by dmiring others they were "the son of God." It was a thing, I guess - looking for the Messiah. IIRC Hanina ben Dosa and Jochanan ben Zakkai were of them.

Crusades - I know pretty well. evil thing. A French pope was heartbroken by seeing his own people warring against each other, with many deaths. So he addressed the leaders, telling them his concern and giving them a common enemy - Muslims. But first, he said, "Let's have a practice run - against another common enemy. We'll kill all the Jews in the Rhineland." And so they did. And on to the East, for the main events. Muslims haven't forgotten all this, to this day.

Maybe religion would be OK without the evils. But they're in there - in every box of the stuff. I just want to be a GOOD Atheist. That's all. Can you help me?




-

 

I KNOW that, Rachel. Bin ta school, Collitch an' all that. Learned some history. The parts about religion were mostly WARS about religion. And awful things like the Holocaust. It's like a lot of things - you have to know about them - but you don't have to LIKE them.

 

Maybe that's because I'm new to that belief. I've never liked religion - since I was a boy. Religion was something my teachers and parents had, back in postwar England and I didn't like any of THEM. But I didn't get all the way to "no deities exist" until a specific moment in 2021. The light went on and that was it. No going back.

 

I think what might have started my aversion to religion was having to learn "Onward Christian Soldiers" when I was maybe 5 or 6 in school. This was 1948 or 1949 and I already knew soldiers and war were scary and people got killed. That hymn is a terrible thing to teach little kids - or adults.

 

You might not say/think such things, but saying that you can't see why anyone would study them as an atheist is teetering dangerously close to that assessment. I've seen multiple atheists saying that the Christian Bible shouldn't even be studied as literature because of how "harmful" it is. That everyone who believes in it is crazy, etc. and so can be safely dismissed. It's bizarre, IMO. I don't have to think that The Communist Manifesto should be followed to think it's a useful book to read and to study to be able to understand all the harmful events that have been precipitated in the name of that book. In this regard, the Bible, Koran, Vedas, etc. are no better or worse than The Communist Manifesto.

Religion has done a lot of bad in the world, sure, but atheism (in and of itself) is no better. Any time a person thinks they can get power over others, evilness arises. There are atheists who do good. There are atheists who use (or who have used) their atheism as an excuse to do unspeakable things. From a certain perspective, the atheist and the religious person only really differ in whether or not they believe that there is some sort of guaranteed punishment (in this life or in the next) for the immoral acts that are done. That's it. If they want to do wrong, they will both find an excuse to justify why what they are doing is "right" even in the face of being objectively horrible people.

 

"Objectively horrible people." Does that apply to me? Also, I've never said people who believe in any religion are crazy. Some few are, of course, but so are some Atheists. There are plenty of good people, and people I like in the world. I don't make their religion a factor in how I feel about them, unless they get in my face about it.

 

Admission requires a pastoral recommendation, and I don't know whether they verify the pastor's credentials somehow or care which faith the pastor is a part of. If the pastor is UU or of some other non-Christian faith, then it would be obvious that you lied when you agreed with the questionnaire. There are some Christians who are a part of UU, but I think the questionnaire might ask something about whether you believe the Bible is the only true word of God.

For the DMin, you need an ecclesiastical endorsement. However, Liberty has other religion programs that do not require an endorsement or recommendation.

 

I don't know you personally, so I can't 100% say no. I don't think it does apply to you, though. But there have been atheist dictators who used various excuses to justify their atrocities. Things like genocide being okay because "survival of the fittest" and so on. The dead don't care if you killed them because "your god" told you to or because "evolution says it's a good thing"; they're still dead.

 

In my Security Studies program, we studied the Wahhabi movement within Islam because it inspired Jihadism. You can't begin to understand the security issues in the Middle East without understanding various extremist movements within Islam.

 

That sounds very interesting! I've attempted to read the Koran a couple of times, but I know nothing of the various sects and movements within the religion. Do you know of any good books on the subject?

 

Yes - there have been horrible atheists and horrible religious people - right up to the highest clerical ranks... I'm trying to be a good Atheist. I want to give a good account of myself when I stand before, um... nobody, I guess.

 

Try this one. I like the author. I used to see her program "Big Ideas" on Canadian TV. She termed herself a "Muslim Refusenik"
https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-trouble-with-islam-today-a-muslims-call-for-reform-in-her-faith_irshad-manji/269253/item/1703249/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pmax_canada_low&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzujht5KvgAMVzcfjBx3wNAvbEAQYBCABEgIHffD_BwE#idiq=1703249&edition=3532148

 

Johann is mistaken. He finds himself standing before uh - Somebody, for Final Judgment.

Somebody: "And what did you accomplish in your life, Johann?"
Johann: "Well, uh -- I made over 11,000 posts on DegreeInfo..."
Somebody: "All right, come on in, then. You've served your term in Hell."

 

One of the books we read was The New Arab Revolt by the Council on Foreign Affairs. It covers the history of Saudi Arabia spreading Wahhabi materials throughout the Muslim world.

 

The Franciscan School of Theology in partnership with the University of San Diego "gladly welcomes people of all beliefs to share in the Franciscan Spiritual and Intellectual Tradition" as students of their online MTS in Franciscan Theology. A list of types of people the program is intended for includes "Seekers" and "Individuals looking for something more."

 

I was encouraged today by a picture of "The Atheist Bus" in London, that I believe Richard Dawkins had something to do with. The message: "There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Makes a lot of sense to me. Not much else does. And "looking for something more" -- simply doesn't work for me at all. The Franciscans do, indeed have an intellectual and spiritual tradition - and I'm sure some great people are associated with it, but for some reason I can't fully put my finger on, I don't want to hear about it.

This tradition isn't for people who are not even motivated to look for anything at all. I'll just enjoy the "Atheist Bus" ride... or try.