Argosy Going Down the Tubes

Liberty has joined the mixed. They are offering aid to Argosy students.

https://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=18495&mid=314978

• Application fees for Argosy students will be waived between March 10 and May 29, 2019.
• Any Argosy student who transfers their credits to Liberty will receive their first online course free of charge.
• After the first free course, Argosy students who are enrolled part time in at least 6 credit hours over the summer term will have their $199 technology fee waived, plus they can also take advantage of lower full-time tuition rates.
• Argosy students may transfer in a maximum of two-thirds of their program hours toward a graduate program (if approved and allowable).

 

At the moment, the cynic in me is in control. Liberty does not get my praise on this, even as an alumni. It is a business decision. Liberty needs to get rid of the technology fee or include it directly in the cost of the tuition.it is excessive, a money grab, and it has no value-added to the quality of the education one received. Argosy students should be given the decently of time for them to make an informed decision. The marketing ply of giving them a very limited timeline, scarcity of time, to me is just too exploitative.

 

I think it is kind of lame to only allow two-thirds transferable. What about the woman who was presenting her dissertation when she got the news? If any of these schools are going to ride the wave and reel in abandoned Argosy students, they should "make it right" for all of them and try to approve as much as possible. If they were getting a degree in Psychology, for instance, and Liberty has a similar doctorate, then make them take the classes that would be missing for the Liberty degree. And there should be accommodation for dissertations as well. If a chair or committee doesn't think it is worthy or needs a change in direction, so be it, but if it is on the mark, then maybe move forward. And maybe they have something like that already in the works, but I would be concerned.

I think extraordinary circumstances warrant more compassion.

 

Or maybe I should rethink my previous comments if their doctoral programs are as worthless as this:

From https://www.chronicle.com/forums/index.php?topic=69548.5;wap2

 

I agree that it's a purely business move. I disagree with your point about the tech fee though. I think it's reasonable to charge $199 for the whole semester regardless of the amount of credits you take. If it's to be factored into the per credit rate, I'm sure it will be more expensive in the end.

I can't complain about Liberty's tuition because I pay 25% less than the standard tuition.

 

Keep in mind that not every school offers an ABD or dissertation completion pathway (DCP). Liberty accepts a maximum of 15 transfer credit at the doctoral level. Argosy students should consider the schools that offer DCPs.

 

Is low standard a problem with accreditation, or is it a problem with institutions? At first glance, I will say it is a problem with accreditation. The for-profit mission is to maximize shareholders wealth. To me that means teaching at the minimum accredited standards and charging the maximum bearable tuitions and fees. An as holders of mutual funds for my retirement that is good for me - it comes with a cost. As a person with a conscience, i see for-profit behaviour in general as unscrupulous.

 

Both? That's not to say they are all like that. Even with Argosy, I am sure there were probably some that were rigorous, though perhaps not to the same extent as a traditional program. That is just one individual's account.

I think there can be many issues at play, and it is hard to nail it down to one or two. I would leave others to that task.

 

This is another way of putting the principle, "To every rule there are exceptions."

Once upon a time, there was an active member here at DI that we will call, say, "Dennis H." DI old-timers will immediately know who I mean when I mention that, at the time he was active on DI, he had already earned 12 degrees, all of which were RA. He is one of the many people from the old days that dropped out of all the forums, but in his time he was such an active mill-buster as to be one of the original Gang of Six.

Anyway, one of the last degrees he earned was a DBA from Argosy. But he never enrolled in Argosy, he enrolled in the University of Sarasota. Although a for profit, U. Sarasota was sufficiently impressive that I actually considered enrolling there myself at one time. But that was in a different century, long before for-profits got hit with a case of satanic evil across the board.

The U. Sarasota DBA was a low-residency program, with occasional seminars held at the home campus in Florida. Dennis went through the program and enjoyed his time there . . . until the end. Just before he was ready to graduate, the school was bought by Argosy, and came under Argosy's name. Dennis was not a happy camper, because by the time he graduated he ended up with an Argosy doctorate. Even so, except for a ridiculous institutional name, the school maintained a reputation of excellence, as did other Argosy campuses, for a number of years - until the scandals began to hit the for-profits across the board.

In other words, even some of the for-profits were good schools at one time, many years ago and in a galaxy far away. It's only within the past 20-ish years that they all seemed to go down the tubes in terms of quality.

Even today, the for-profits have something in common with the degree mills: Their programs may be deficient, but occasionally you'll find students that do outstanding work and perform in a manner that would reflect higher quality institutional norms. The difference, however, is that even if a graduate did an outstanding degree program, he or she will spend years having to defend their degrees.

Even the graduates of NA programs find themselves defending their credentials here on DI. Do their degrees meet their individual needs? Perhaps, but if they had RA degrees they would not find themselves having to defend their NA degrees. And even if they have RA degrees from a for profit (like, say, Argosy) they still find themselves having to defend their credentials.

 

I think it was after the advent of the University of Phoenix that for-profits begun to put profit ahead of the welfare of students.

 

Very interesting perspective. I have never taken for profit coursework, but I try to keep abreast of what is current as well as recent past, and I was not aware of the transformation that occurred.

 

more stuff

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-argosy-university-what-now-20190308-story.html

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/03/07/argosy-university-announces-it-may-cease-operations-this-week/

 

This headline caught my attention. I read a bit of the article, same old.
FOR-PROFIT MOOC PROVIDERS ARE PUSHING MARGINS FIRST AND CHANGING THE WORLD SECOND
https://news.elearninginside.com/for-profit-mooc-providers-are-pushing-margins-first-and-changing-the-world-second/

 

That's partly why it's so important for members here to promote for profit schools, as they offer such invaluable services for students.

 

Online complaints and reviews are meaningless unless one finds a pattern of the same type of complaint from a large number of customers. With that said, I can pull up many disparaging comments about all of the large for-profits. Almost all of them will have a large number of complaints about the quality of education.

If you think about it, higher education is not a well-regulated industry in comparison to healthcare, K-12, and some other industries. It's not required by law to be licensed, pass a certification test, and/or have specific education or training to start a college, design courses, or even teach classes. Colleges are mostly governed by private organizations that give colleges a lot of flexibility. The government only ensures that they meet bare minimum standards. So, it's mainly up to the free market to keep colleges in line.

The problem with this is that it is not easy for the average person to gauge the quality of his or her education. You have to be educated to understand the education. When you go to buy lettuce, you can immediately see if it's soggy. If you bought a jar of spaghetti sauce and cooked it, you can immediately tell if it tastes good. Education is similar to healthcare. How can you tell if you were misdiagnosed? How do you know if you were prescribed the best treatment? Higher education and healthcare are industries in which it's easy to take advantage of people and provide low quality services, but healthcare practitioners have to meet higher standards. How does a student know if he or she is learning correct information in a physics class without having a college education in physics? People often don't become aware of the quality of their education until they attempt to apply their education in the real world. They might also get a wake-up call when employers discriminate against them based on past experiences with bad hires from the same school.

Example: I'm taking forensic medicine courses that are being taught by forensic pathologists and forensic anthropologists. The problem is that these classes include lessons on criminal justice practices and law. Most of the students in the program have science backgrounds, but I have a criminology background. We were taught about the CSI Effect, and all the students took it as fact because that is what the professors believed in. This is my field, so I knew better. There is not strong evidence to support that the CSI Effect affects verdicts. So, I pulled up several research articles to make my case during a discussion. One can only hope that my classmates read the articles instead of depend on what a physician told them based on sensational newspaper articles.

 

That is why we want to promote RA and actual course work (not tests), so that people have the ability to do just that. Absent education, it may not be possible. You said you come from testing, but you are are very active and engaged. A typical student is not, and they would accept what a physician told them. We want to make sure students can learn how to think critically, and most students learn that through course work in college.

 

Who is this "we" of whom you speak?

 

Um. These are people with biology, chemistry, and medical technology degrees that they earned on campus at traditional universities. This is a graduate program at University of Florida, not Capella. UF has real admissions standards. My classmates did not test out of their degrees, but I tested out of half of my undergrad. It, obviously, did not matter how many courses they took. They trusted that the physician teaching the course properly researched the information he put into the module readings. I am only able to pick up mistakes in the courses because I've worked for law enforcement and social services agencies, and I have an academic background in criminal justice.

 

So i guess not as much "critical thinking," but more just previous background. That makes sense.

I do not know why you fixate on Capella with me in every other post. I have never, nor would I ever, attend any for profit, but I don't think all of their graduates are that bad, as some have done some amazing things. That is why I don't group them with Argosy and the like. It is the quality of graduates some have produced. I don't really have any deep knowledge of their programs or what goes on there, nor do I really care. I am sure like with any for profit, there probably are a fair amount of negatives, and some degrees or even individual instructors may be better than the program as a whole. So keep flaming them as it only reflects upon yourself and doesn't bother me, as your negativity will have no impact on my view.

 

the latest victims

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-education/2019/03/15/argosy-university-delays-final-paychecks-employees/3177328002/