Alliant International University DBA program

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by felderga, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Thank you for this Felderga. It's a dramatic price reduction on an RA DBA. ($57K - $25K = $32K) I'm not personally in the market for a DBA, but somebody might be. (There's endless fascination with business degrees here on Degreeinfo.)

    Alliant is the former US International University in San Diego. It was known back in the day (1960's) for being... well... international. It had campuses in various foreign locations and all of its undergraduates spent at least a year studying abroad. I believe that the foreign locations have all closed with one exception. The Nairobi Kenya campus spun off, became independent, and retains the old name 'US International University' and its own separate WASC accreditation.

    USIU changed its name to Alliant International University when it merged with the California Schools of Professional Psychology. (I never liked the new name which sounds like a bad cell-phone company. But it's what you get when you hire corporate consultants.) Today Alliant is known for being (by far) the largest single source of clinical psychologists in California. It maintains branch 'campuses' (typically leased space in office buildings) in a variety of California locations. I walk past the San Francisco location (on the northern waterfront near Fisherman's Wharf) all the time. Alliant branches can be found in LA, Fresno, Sacramento and Irvine as well.
  2. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    The logic of those “corporate consultants” (if there, in fact, were any) was quite simple: Find a name that begins with “A” so your school will be listed first (or close to it) in the telephone book or in other institutional lists.

    It’s not just Alliant – think Argosy as well. By the way, one of the reasons I don’t endorse Alliant (noting that that primary reason is merely that it’s a for-profit) is that, like Alliant, Argosy was heavy into psychology programs that were accredited by the APA. Yet despite its credibility in that area, Argosy flew the coop in an overnight move and screwed all of its students.

    By the way, one of the most well-known “A” name changes involved Beaver College, a traditional women's liberal arts school in Glenside, PA. (Living down the street from their campus, I took a course at Beaver during my high school years when they let guys in during the summer session.) When they joined the slew of schools switching to university status, they decided to chuck the name Beaver. According to Wikipedia, “Some significant changes came in 1973, when the college launched its first graduate programs and began admitting men again. The rise of the internet, with systems designed to filter out sexually explicit material, repeatedly blocked access to the college's website. A research found that because of its name, the institution appealed to 30% fewer prospective students. In June 2001, trustees voted to apply for university status and to change the name In July 2001, upon attaining university status, Beaver College officially changed its name to Arcadia University.”

    It seems that in addition to its historical meaning, the word beaver was slang for vagina. And even locally, many school and library computers prevented students from looking the college up on the internet because of its name. So what did they do for a new name? The same thing that Argosy and Alliant would do years later – go straight to the beginning of the alphabet so Arcadia would show up first in lists.

    It’s an old technique that has even impacted the theatre. Once upon a time, way back in 1975, there was a show going to Broadway called Chorus Line. Before it opened, the producers were smart enough to realize that The New York Times alphabetized its theatre ads strictly. If a show began with the word The it would be listed with the T’s regardless of the next word. So they changed the name of their show to A Chorus Line. It would go onto become the longest-running show in Broadway history with over 6,000 performances (plus another 700+ performances for a 2006 revival). (The show is now the 7th longest running overall.) Was it strictly because they added the “A” too the title to come in first in the NYT listings? No, but there’s no doubt that their position in the show index helped them quite a bit.

    And so concludes a fascinating message. After all, it’s not every day that I get to write about Broadway musicals and vaginas in the same post.
  3. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Let me break it down for you since it seems you lack critical thinking skills.

    Let's use another example. Just an example: "I confused Olivet Nazarene University with Trevecca Nazarene University because they are both private schools with Nazarene in their names." Would I classify these schools as private simply because they both have Nazarene in their names? Heck no!

    Let's ignore the shady part in the Trident/Alliant post. They both have "International" in their names and they are both for-profit schools. They share a relationship both in name and control status. It has nothing to do with shady at this point. I am going to go further and say they are also both shady.

    I don't feel the need to explain why. Dr. Levicoff already did. In fact, I was waiting for Steve to chime in because I knew this type of topic was his forte.
  4. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Actually, it was about the "shady" from the start and it still is. You've called these schools shady for a reason and I'm trying to get you to tell us why you think they're shady. It's really quite simple. You can wait for Levicoff to save you but it just means you don't have any real reasons for saying they're shady. And by the way, it would be best if you didn't talk down to me. It offends my delicate sensibilities.
  5. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    I find Chris quite competent, and don't feel that he needs me to save him. But, for what it's worth, an observation . . .

    When an individual is patronizing or condescending, it reflects negatively on that person. When a moderator is patronizing or condescending, it reflects upon the entire forum.

    It's time for the personal attacks to stop - in both directions. They are only designed to provoke, they are obnoxious to see in print, and they reflect negatively on the credibility of this board, especially when a moderator becomes guilty of this fallacy.

    Delicate sensibilities, my ass. In the realm of critiquing nontraditional education, there are no delicate sensibilities. There are merely degrees of pomposity. And as y'all know, I am an expert in pomposity. (I thought I'd say that before Kizmet did.)
    chrisjm18 likes this.
  6. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Let's call it a truce lol.. I don't have time for this chewing gum (Trident) conversation.
  7. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Alliant isn't my favorite university by any means.

    But I don't know of any reason to think that it's "of doubtful honesty or legality... suspicious, disreputable, devious or unethical" (from an online dictionary definition of 'shady' with synonyms).

    The word 'shady' seems to combine the idea of 'questionable' with a negative moral judgment. Questionable in a culpable way.

    Alliant is a legitimate (if unspectacular) RA school in my opinion. (It does have some interesting features, such as its prominence in the California clinical psychology world.) I'm confident that a student can get a serviceable education there.

    There may indeed be a legitimate question whether this DBA program would be a good choice for particular students. (I don't think that it would be a good fit for me.) One could ask that question about pretty much any university, choice of major or whatever.

    But I don't see any reason to attribute moral blame to anyone.

    So perhaps the word 'shady' was ill-chosen and a bit too strong.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I'm still wondering why y0u think those two schools are shady. Not why someone else might think that, but why you do.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Back in the day, US International University, one of Alliant's two predecessors, was a unique player in the award of doctorates to working professionals. You could earn a doctorate at their campus (in San Diego) while continuing to work full-time, not a mean feat back then.

    David Chigos, founder of the massive National University, had a PhD from USIU.
  10. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    That's OK. We can come back to it when you're not so busy.
  11. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    And I wonder why Rich and Kizmet are pursuing this line of questioning, which is antagonizing at best and will lead nowhere in terms of constructive dialogue.s

    I happen to think they're shady, too. Why? Only one reason - they are for profit. If anyone has a problem with that, tough noogies.

    Now, does that mean I don't see value in Alliant? (I haven't looked at Trident at all, so I won't comment on them. The only Tridet I know is a character in The Little Mermaid, and I'm quite satisfied with) Alliant, after all, holds some impressive accreditations, including APA. That puts them a step ahead of many programs, both for profit and non profit. But would I recommend them? Nope. Because I don't feel like it.

    And when it comes to accreditations, so did Argosy, which had several schools of professional psychology under its belt. Until they did a fly-by-night and shut the university down.

    The mere semblance of a risk that Alliant, Trident, or any other for-profit might do the same thing is, IMO, an unacceptable notion. Therefore, yes, I place them in the same category as any other for-profit that has shut down.

    Yes, my beloved turkeys, I recognize that non-profits can do the same thing. You only have to look at the small liberal arts colleges in Vermont that have or will be shutting down. Yes, I acknowledge that you could say that I'm holding a double standard.

    You know what? I don't give a crap. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's different from yours, and if you want to waste my time with your intellectual masturbation, I couldn't care less. Or more. I don't take you any more seriously than I take myself. Especially if you are anonymous. I'm not urging you to come out of your identity closet, merely acknowledging that it exists. Get over it. And while you attempt to instigate conflict, always remember that I'm laughing at you.
    Now, that's funny. Bravo. In fact, the only school from which I graduated that has a football team is Norwich University, and they're not that great - Norwich excels in hockey but not football. On the other hand, I don't follows sports at all, so I don't know where they stand these days. But I'm sure they do better than both TESU and Union.

    But to the matter of labeling my degrees "online . . ." That would be rather difficult, since when I graduated with all three of my degrees, online programs did not exist at all. There were correspondence programs out the wazoo in the old days, but I did neither correspondence programs nor online programs. So when I say that online education is crap (keeping in mind that I have no problem with online learning at the undergrad level), I'm not discussing the way I pursued my education.

    Rich recently commented on the learner-centered, low residency nature of Union, so I won't repeat that here except to say that I followed the same model at then-Vermont College of Norwich University. That model functionally doesn't exist at many schools anymore (and I don't keep up with the one where it still exists), so it is now accurate to say that current students at Union might do a fully online program. But when I did my program, in what both Rich and I call the good old days, there was no online learning at all. Would I enroll in Union based on their current model? Hell, no. But in the salad days, it was the place to be.

    I shall now resume laughing at the rest of you. Because I can.
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    The first part of my response has to be laughter because you, of all people, are offering criticism to anyone ANYONE for antagonizing and non-constructive dialogue. You're so funny that you're actually funny even when you're not trying. Even when you're trying to be serious.
    The second part of my response is to your "they are for profit" rationale. It's simply this . . . . "That's it? That's all ya got? OK, thank you."
    heirophant likes this.
  13. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I, for one did not "pursue" any line of questioning. But after the back-and-forth, I was curious why that poster thought thought schools were shady.

    I'm familiar with Steve's opinion about for-profit schools. I, for one, wasn't asking for it.
  14. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Reality check (you like these, right?) - for most people today, degrees are either residential or on-line. Your degrees were not residential ("low-residence" is a fig leaf), so where does it leave us? If anything, prevalence of online programs now made non-traditional degrees like yours MORE acceptable; if you try to explain portfolio-based TESC process (earned in the "BA in 4 weeks" era) or learner-centered Union doctorate (in Individual Studies, earnable in 2 years part time) to many, they'll conclude your degrees are LESS credible. So while you're entitled to your opinions, thrashing "online learning", for you, is more than a little shooting your own foot. Especially since any school attempting to build a "learner-centered, low residency" program now would (more likely, do) use online technology. I'm in a University of London self-study program now, and they bolted a LMS on it. Oh, and schools where I earned my degrees all have sports teams. Go Seminoles!

    Do I have an opinion on Aliant program? Not really. Superficially, it seems OK, price point is good, and "Aliant" is actually not the worst name among these schools ("Trident"). Yeah, for-profit thing is a concern, and I'd look at the EBS program if I was pursuing a DBA. But if another student picked Aliant, I wouldn't have much criticism to offer. In US, other schools around $30K price point are CalSouthern and Cumberlands - AIU is competitive with these.
  15. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    I have no idea what the hell "LMS" means. Personally, I get tired of the way people tend to abbreviate everything around here, so generally I don't bother with them.

    Be that as it may, Stan, feel free to trash my credentials in any manner you'd like. Compared to you, I'd say you're a peer at best, but compared to everyone else, you and I both have RA Ph.D. degrees, and the rest of them don't. If you want to play President and I play Vice-President, I have no problem with that. Or, as we say in the gay world, you can be the top in our relationship. (A-ha! I made a funny!)

    Then, while you're trying to bust anything below your fully residential doctorate, I won't harp on the fact that when you graduated, FSU listed you on their Ph.D. directory as being employed by "Apollo Group / University of Phoenix." And even though I consider the U. Phoenix to be made up of whores, I won't trash you for it.

    By the way, are you the same Stanislav U. that worked magic with the stories of Hans Christian Andersen and other children's books? I don't know how common your last name (which I will not reveal here) is, but if you guys are one and the same I would find that quite honorable.
  16. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    I was asked that. My last name is moderately common, but I was surprised when someone pointed that guy out to me. Sadly, not me.

    How about I promise not to bust your credentials if you agree not to bust credentials that no one but you considers below your own? It used to be the consensus here that while accredited degrees differ in utility, earning any of them is an accomplishment and not an invitation to bust one's balls. If you will not take this deal (and you will not - I'm realistic), we can just continue to snipe at each other and have our fun.

    I think I'll be content with "peer" designation. You even have a thing that I don't, which is an academic press book (Moody Press, but still). We are both largely unsuccessful academics with RA PhDs, which is more than most people can say.
  17. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    I think you’ll find that, as a general rule, I don’t bust individuals’ balls, but degree categories. Mostly, I bust the balls of totally non-residential graduate degrees in the helping professions, as well as the plethora of nouveau degree titles and the doctorate du jour nature of degrees in fields such as leadership and organizational management. The purpose of my ball busting is to reach people before they make decisions they will ultimately regret. It’s that simple.

    As for your kind offer, I think I’ll graciously decline. It reeks too much of self-censorship. Moreover, even when you attempt to trash my credentials it’s nothing that I haven’t heard before. When comments like yours come from those without credentials, they are easy to write off even if I flippantly say, “Hey, I’ve got an RA non-profit Ph.D. – and you don’t.”

    In your case, however, you also have an RA non-profit Ph.D. and, in fact, earned it traditionally. But it’s also easy to write off your comments since I’ve found that those who took the traditional route (like you) tend to have a mentality on the level of, “I paid my dues, so should you.” In other words, the only way that people like you didn’t do a Ph.D. in the manner I did is that, at the time, you didn’t know that you could.

    As for defending my credentials, these days I generally defer to Rich Douglas. Notwithstanding that his first doctorate is in non-traditional education, I’m satisfied with his ability to articulate the magical days of learner-centered education quite well. Those days, sadly, are over, and today’s generation of students will never know what they missed, being stuck instead with the canned, rote approach of online degrees.

    Hmmmmm . . . I never thought of Moody as an academic press, although it obviously is one based on its affiliation. At the time I was holding several offers and had multiple contracts in hand. I simply went with Moody because they were then the 7th largest Christian publisher, academic or otherwise.

    I’ve never been concerned with things like academic affiliations or peer reviewed journals. I can recall having only one article published in a journal per se, and I never bothered asking whether it was a peer reviewed publication or not.

    One thing with which I would take issue is the notion that you and “are both largely unsuccessful academics with RA PhDs, which is more than most people can say.” Not only did I never think of myself as unsuccessful, I have found that I accomplished every goal that I set for myself in both the academic and professional worlds. I taught at RA graduate schools for eight years, but never had the desire to be full time at any one school, nor gain tenure or have articles out the wazoo published. (I was happy having written five books.) In fact, at the end of eight years I was so thoroughly bored by academe that I decided to try driving tractor-trailers around the country, and had a blast doing that for the next 20+ years, never missing teaching for a moment. (As for the writing part, I would end up writing training manuals and regulatory policies for multiple companies, which paid far more than I made on most of my books.)

    As for reality checks, the ultimate one that I observed is that with my three degrees plus 50 cents, I could afford the same quarter-cup of Starbucks as any other trucker. And the past 20 years were as happy as any of those that preceded them. Well, with one disadvantage: now that I’m retired and have even more time to do the theatre, I find that virtually every show that comes to town or gets produced by a local theatre is one that I’ve seen before, often multiple times. Ah, well . . .

    So, if you feel like a “largely unsuccessful academic,” I’m honestly sorry to hear that – after all you put into your Ph.D., I would hope for more positive outlook. Thus, if it makes you feel better to trash me occasionally, feel free – that’s what friends are for.
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    "...and the doctorate du jour nature of degrees in fields such as leadership and organizational management."

    As a practicing leadership developer for 40 years, one steeped in not just the practice, but also the scholarship of leadership, I respectfully disagree. The existence of leadership and management as scholarly fields of study is unassailable.

    As for Steve being a "failed" academic, I don't see it. I don't recall Steve ever pursing a career in academia, only to fail at it. As for his other occupational pursuits, I'm not at all interested in judging them. If he was my coaching client, the first thing I'd want to know is his perception, then work from there. That's the only perspective that matters.
  19. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Rich might be surprised to find that he and I are in full agreement on this premise. I never said that leadership and management are not scholarly fields – quite clearly they are both scholarly fields.

    What I have said is that today’s Ed.D. degree in Leadership is a doctorate du jour. In the old days, such a degree program was specifically designed to prepare people to be principals, school superintendents, and college presidents. Union, in fact, had an excellent track record of preparing its graduates to serve as college presidents. One of the longest serving presidents, in fact, was George Pruitt of TESC, who earned his Union Ph.D. years before Union was even regionally accredited. (I’ve seen multiple examples of Union grads who pursued outstanding programs prior to their RA status, and have often found that these may have been Union’s best days, even better than when I went through Union post-RA.)

    But today, the Ed.D. in Leadership is no longer a program that prepares people to be the best of the best – it’s now a one-size-fits-all program that colleges are putting in to bump up their doctoral enrollment numbers. It has become, in essence, a cash cow in which people who did their prior degrees in other fields neglect to get a doctoral credential in those fields in favor of a so-called leadership degree.

    I included two course components in leadership in my own Ph.D. program at Union, one of which was an actual Union seminar held in Washington, led by the dean of the graduate school, and featuring some of the leading thinkers in the field. It was heavy on the school of thinking developed by James Macgregor Burns, one of the main scholars in the field of leadership. As typical of such a seminar, there was a case study focus, and in our case (being the late 1980s) it was the Challenger space shuttle disaster and what went wrong with it from a leadership perspective. Totally cool stuff.

    Leadership as a field? Totally legitimate. But leadership as a doctoral major for anyone and everyone who simply wants a doctoral title and will never become a leader? That’s where the bullshit comes in.
  20. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    I agree with Steve. Of the nine doctoral programs to which I was accepted, five were Ed.Ds in Leadership or Organizational Leadership (Abilene Christian, Southeastern (FL), Grand Canyon, ACE, and Argosy. My main motivation was just to earn a doctorate and all of these schools would allow me to research topics that weren't directly related leadership. In fact, many of them advertise that they welcome students from many fields including education, business, government, law enforcement, healthcare, and so on. Although my motivation for pursuing a doctorate is just to fulfill my childhood dream, I feel better knowing that I'm studying a field in which I've earned my undergraduate degree and one of my master's degrees.

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