Accreditation Poll

An unaccredited school would operate without outside validation. A State Approved school has gone through an external validation process. This external examination gives the school and its students legal rights and responsibilities. The rights and responsibilities given by state law to approved schools exist above and beyond self-validated institutions. In California especially, State Approved schools have priviledges that the self-validated schools do not enjoy.

 

Wrong. In the case of Wyoming, the "approval" is merely a business license. There is no academic scrutiny or oversight whatsoever.

That's debatable at best. California authorities are basically impotent due to lack of staff & funding, which was never more apparent during their attempts to close Columbia Pacific.

 

I'm surprised also by the number of B & M degrees present. I naturally assumed that DL degrees would be dominant on a DL forum, but I suppose the interest in DL reaches across the borders, even to those who haven't tried it themselves.

 

Only 36 votes out of over 4100 members.

Too bad..., it would have been interesting to see how many DL students are on the forum.

I agree however, it is somewhat surprising there aren't more DL students.

 

Unfortuntately there was one category missing. My Master's was completely DL, but for the most part everyone is being touched by DL, I had taken a couple of classes as an undergrad.

If there was a category of some classes DL, it might show the majority are DL.

 

In Wyoming, there is no approval process or certification of quality from the State so you cannot use that as an example as such.

Would you please provide any evidence to this statement? This is repeated as an argument to invalidate the CA system. Where is the evidence of this other than a reference in Bear's Guide which is an unsubstantiated opinion? Since CA is not a dictatorship, CPU followed a legal appeals process but was ultimately unsuccessful. BPPVE was steadfast in their findings and were upheld repeatedly. You can draw no conclusions related to BPPVE resources from that.

 

I think part of the problem was that it was a "past tense" poll. If it was asked whether any of your previous degrees *or* the degree on which you are presently working were distance learning, a different result might have occured.




Tom Nixon

 

I didn't use it as an example, you did when you stated "An unaccredited school would operate without outside validation. A State Approved school has gone through an external validation process".

Unaccredited schools in Wyoming, such as Kennedy-Western, have "state approval". The state has issued them a business license and therefore have "approved" them to operate. The fact that such approval is academically meaningless, and therefore doesn't suit your argument, doesn't change anything.

I already have.

 

You are referring to a post I did not write. However, it is true that a State Approved school goes through an external validation (certification) process. Business licensing is not an approval process.

Licensed to operate and Approved by the State are two distinctly different processes. In CA for instance, the school must be approved through inspection and certification. Then with that approval they are also licensed to operate. This is often confused. I am not aware of a State Approval process in Wyoming. Further, I believe Wyoming goes so far as to say specifically that it does not provide approvals for schools.

I must have missed it, where? when? You made a very assertive statement but I saw no evidence. Did you provide a reference or is this your personal opinion? Are you repeating Bear's Guide? I only bring this up because it is often repeated as fact but not once (that I am aware of) has anyone provided any evidence that the BPPVE and the State of California are unable to properly supervise the schools within their jurisdiction. I'll stand corrected if this has been shown to be the case. If not, then I think it's time to rewrite the Myth Guide.

 

Bruce's post was a response to a James post.

What myth books might that be? Perhaps the one where you said that the "big 3" were degree mills and can't explain how that position is consistent with you claiming that K-W is not a degree mill. If you're talking about that myth book then it seems to be rewritten frequently.

 

My sincere apologies. I got my shills confused.

1) Wrong

2) Yes, it is.

The State of Wyoming has issued a business license to Kennedy-Western University, saying that it's okay to conduct business in their state. That certainly walks, talks, and smells like "approval" to me. I'm sure that Wyoming isn't too happy about it, but they issued the license.

Whether you care to admit it or not, "state approved" schools in California and in Wyoming have the exact same status in academic terms. That is, they are all unaccredited, and therefore their degrees & credits will almost certainly NOT be accepted by legitimately accredited schools.

Call the BPPVE and ask for their records in regards to Columbia Pacific. It's public information.

 

Education

No doubt you have all personally considered, no doubt you have all personally experienced, that all the blessings which it has pleased Providence to allow us to cultivate, there is not one which breathes a purer fragrance or bears a heavenlier aspect than education. It is a companion which no misfortunes can depress, no clime destroy, no ENEMY alienate, no DESPOTISM enslave: at home a friend, abroad an introduction, in solitude a solace, in society an ornament:it chastens VICE, it guides virtue, it gives at once a grace and government to genius. Without it, what is man? A splendid SLAVE! a reasoning SAVAGE, vacillating between the dignity of an intelligence derived from God and the degradation of PASSIONS participated with BRUTES; and in the accident of their alternate ascendency shuddering at the terrors of an hereafter, or embracing the horrid hope of annihilation. What is this wonderous world of his residence?

-The Philosophy of Life, Anderson M. Baten

 

The BPPVE is over worked and understaffed for the job that the legislature has assigned it. Witness the threads on this forum recently regarding the topic of Greenwich applying for California approval. There's a log jam at the BPPVE and they haven't managed to approve any application in many months.

IMHO, this is evidence of one of the advantages of the USA accreditation system compared to the rest of the countries in the world. When government budgets get tight then the accreditation activities seem to be the first to suffer. California is going through horrific budget problems right now. The UK department of higher education the last few years has been encouraging their universities to start policing themselves more and use the USA system as an example. On the other hand, the proliferation of degree mills operating in states with weak laws is the biggest disadvantage. /IMHO

 

Your sincere apology is accepted. And the "shill" comment is uncalled for. I hope my challenges to the veracity of your statements aren't irritating you too much. Let's not resort to namecalling. Argue the points like the educated person you are.

I have no idea why you mention K-W. I've never mentioned the school in this thread or any other that I know of. You are not very well informed on the Approved vs License issue. I suggest you review the Wyoming educational statutes. I've attached part of the 2003 Wyoming Statutes, Title 21 Education, Chapter 2, Article 4 which states (in part):

"21‑2‑402. Licensure; post secondary education institutions; application; fees; suspension and revocation...

(b) Post secondary education institutions specified under W.S. 21‑2‑401(a) shall apply to the state department of education for a license under this article. Application shall be in a manner and on a form prescribed by the department and shall include...

(v) A copy of the enrollment agreement, contract or other document which acknowledges the enrollment of each student... shall contain the following statement:

"I understand that (name of institution) is licensed by the Wyoming department of education in accordance with W.S. 21‑2‑401 through 21‑2‑407 and that neither the department of education nor the Wyoming state board of education has accredited or endorsed any course of study being offered by (name of institution)."

Therefore, Wyoming only licenses a school they DO NOT approve, certify, or endorse any course of study.

This is completely different from California who DOES approve and certify, and endorse each department, degree, and course of study for each school that it approves.

It seems you are having a hard time admitting that there are many California Approved graduates in licensed professions and in academia. Yes, they are restricted in certain instances and there are limitations (and who doesn't know this) however there are numerous CA approved graduates in positions of academia nevertheless. And you should be well aware of this since specific examples have appeared on this site. I don't have any information on Wyoming licensed schools but I would tend to think it is far less, virtually nil.

You are sidestepping my question. You made the statement to the effect that the BPPVE can't properly supervise the schools within its jurisdiction but apparently have no evidence to back it up. A simple handwave to my challenge telling me to look it up is unacceptable since you made the claim and have produced no information to substantiate it. So it must be just your opinion and probably because you heard it or read it somewhere.

 

What are you arguing for here, "kf5k"? Are you trying to assert that state approved schools are really accredited?

I'm not sure that meeting the legal requirements to do business as a school implies that the education offered is what the wider community would recognize as 'valid'.

If you believe that state-approval 'validates' schools, do you think that the rest of us here on Degreeinfo, and the rest of the broader community outside, are obligated in any way to accept these schools as valid?

Valid as what. precisely?

Like existing. It's illegal to operate a degree-granting school in California without state approval to do so. In other words, your "self-validated" category doesn't legally exist. If you are suggesting that we restrict the 'unaccredited' label to them, you are simply suggesting that unaccredited schools don't exist.

The state approved schools are the unaccredited schools.

 

I thought that you were a shill for K-W? Didn't you get a diploma from K-W? Are you really claiming that you have never mentioned K-W in any thread before this one?

 

I have no idea what you are talking about nor do I know who Kf5k is. You on the other hand should know better.

 

abandon ship...!!

And aside from the deflective interference from Bill, the questions for Bruce still stand... do we have an accord on the matter?

A submariner would say you have received three torpedoes in the starboard side and are going down hard by the bow...Bill is apparently standing by to pick up survivors.

 

In California, the approval process is the licensing process. They are one and the same. From the California Education Code:

§ 94900 APPROVAL OF INSTITUTIONS OFFERING ACADEMIC OR HONORARY DEGREES
(a) No private postsecondary educational institution may issue, confer, or award an academic or honorary degree unless the institution is approved by the council to operate in California and award degrees.

That depends on what "properly supervise" means, I guess.

I don't think that very many Californians, who after all are best acquainted with CA-approved schools, believe those without recognized accreditation are nevertheless accredited. Few consider them, collectively, to be educationally equivalent to the RA schools. I base that on my observations as a native Californian who follows those things closely.

For example, a CA-approved psych school not far from my home, granting non-DL Psy.Ds and preparing its graduates for state licensure as clinical psychologists.

What are its physical facilities? Four rented rooms in an office building. One room is their classroom, one is a reception area, one is their administrative office and one small room next to the classroom is their library, with ~1000 volumes.

I suppose that they are reasonably successful in accomplishing what they set out to do, but I really doubt if WASC would accredit such a tiny operation. I also assume that the little administration there in its office has reduced the many functions that accreditors expect to absolute minimums.

But it isn't just that at the best of times, the BPPVE was approving things that the acceditors probably wouldn't. By all accounts, the BPPVE is currently experiencing administrative turbulence, and reportedly the pace of its approvals has dropped way off. It seems to be issuing temporary approvals instead, without going through its full process.

The results have occasionally been embarassing, including approving a school that Mr. Brunton had just succeeded in booting from Hawaii and which despite just appearing in California, already franchises its fresh CA-approval to a misleadingly named business school in London.

Perhaps these recent problems explain why the school directory on the BPPVE website doesn't seem to be operating any longer.

 

In reviewing this thread, the best that I can tell is that North said that state approved and unaccredited are not distinct categories. State approved schools are all unaccredited.

James took exception with this, as did Kirkland.

So, James and Kirkland, are you really claiming that while state approved schools are not accredited, they are also not unaccredited?