about liberian or indonesian degrees

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by milotach, Mar 17, 2004.

  1. milotach

    milotach New Member

    I am a spanish psicology, sorry for my english, and I must say that here degrees are guaranted by the Minister of Education, this is more strong acreditation than your crazy system, but the question here is another. A degree with goverment recognotition is ABSOLUTLY LEGAL, other thing is if is a moral to take a degree for prior learnig acredited by a goverment. It is not and easy question, for my experience I must say that since I finished my studies I am not involved on my profesional degree, actually I am a journalist and writter, I have 3 books published and I have been the director of a magazine many years and also work in national radio station for more than 10. Can any one consider that I am not a journalist because I do not have a pice of paper?. Can any one say that a young boy with 21 and no experience on it, but coming out from university is a legitimated journalist?. There is a lot of profesional status that can be done without univerity studies. This stupid system based on proud are forcing many people to go to this degrees. I have a friend wich is working on India for 13 year, he could built a very nice college for needed childrens, Can any one say that my friend is not much more qualified than one single social work graduated from any university?. Should we destroy the Picasso´s pictures because he did not go to school of arts for a university degree?. Luciano Pavarotti never went to a music school, may be are you better than him becuse you have a pice of paper?. The question is that you should be jugde for what you produce not for what you have in a pice of paper. But there is more incredible contradictions on it, What about the Theology?, religions meens individual practise of spiritual life, is an exclusive question between God and you. I was in India with my friend many times, he is living in a temple with monks all of them followers of Mahatma Gandi´s secretary that now have 92 years old, he is a hinduist priest also, living in that religuos comunity, but the fanny history is that our westerm universities are taken the privilegious so that to say who is a Master Degree also in Hinduism, or Mdiv is INCREDIBLE. No one of this proud teachers or students has never put just one foot on India they have never been living on a hinduist temple but they can say they are a Mdiv. Which Mdiv was earned by Jesus`s disciples, should we stablish them that Jesus made the first diploma mill instituion in the history. There is many people on computer areas, history, archeology, journalism, religion, accounting, publicity and many others more, that are really more experimented people and profesional that any young boy with 4 years of university studies, I come out with 22 and five years degree, now I am 42 and I learned more in my life than in a university, and sincerily, the most of us can not remember what we learm them. And finally what happend with all of this sportman that are passing trought the universities without study nothing and reach the degree because they are a very good players of football, yes of course finally they earned the degree on acredited university, inside of sistem no problem on it if the fraud is legal. We should let the university for a serious questions like medicine, laws, architecture, engenering also if you want to go for your own pleasure to lerm what ever you want, but we need to be honest at the same time and realize that in many areas of kwnloment there is a lot of people that reach their own goals in other ways, but now every body needs a degree because an stupid employer will pay more to you with less experience and a degree, perhaps on Divinity, that another man that is a very professional accounting men, with hight school. We should think first of all how to change this stupid system based on proud. For all of this people there is no other way that to go to a degree granted at last for a foreing goverment like liberia or indonesia, finally the degree will be LEGAL, How many morality can we find on it, is depending about the honestity of the person that is looking for a degree, if he is a really expert or not. :eek:
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The originator of this thread has posted the exact same remarks elsewhere. Clearly, an agenda is afoot.

    The poster confuses professional competency with having a degree. We all know and acknowledge that there are many people in many professions who are quite skilled and accomplished without the benefit of a degree. But that doesn't entitle them to a degree. One earns a degree by following a course of study.

    The poster also confuses the difference between what is legal and what is recognized. It is legal to call one's self a pope, but that doesn't mean others will recognize one as such. Buying a degree from a school is legal in certain parts, but it doesn't entitle one to the same level of recognition as one would expect from earning a degree from a recognized university.

    Morality and honesty? (The poster's last sentence.) Please. One being moral and honest doesn't have to do all that rationalizing about a choice that would receive almost no acceptance. It's not just the members of this board that feel such; it is a reflection of the academic, professional, and occupational environs (to varying levels, for sure).

    Four grand. Jeez. ;)
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Considering the numerous reports Ghandi made the young girls around him give him enema's almost on a daily basis, I found this combination of words quite humorous.
  4. milotach

    milotach New Member

    for rich

    Dear friend, first of all sorry because my bad english. I am not confusing, I am only tray to give you a reflexion about how our educational sistem is also generating this problem. Is big problem whem the people coming out from university are traing to force profesional people not to work on one area. Here in spain the people from university of journalism was traing no to let the profesionals work on it. Tere is a lot of expamples of this in many areas. Please tray to understand the meaning of the message, I am also a university graduated, but on my country I can see now that with this fever on being universitary there is a lot of old profesions that are now inside of university, Why?, if all was working fine, of course just for proud. As you say, professional and degree are not the same in theory but in practise in many areas are mixed. Sorry again for my bad english.
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    "milotach" apologizes twice for his use of English, something no one is criticizing. As is appropriate for such a forum, it is ideas that are discussed, not the manner in which he puts them forth.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2004
  6. milotach

    milotach New Member

    Thanks Rich, my apologize is because for me is dificult to express my self on your languaje, perhaps this not let me to show you what I am traing explain, any case I hope that with my previos answer the meaning of my first post is more clear.
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    In English, there are these things called paragraphs. They serve to divide up your chain-of-consciousness into smaller pieces that are more comprehensible to others.

    Why is that important? Why should anyone care whether or not a degree is legal? What does legality tell us about a degree?

    I generally agree.

    Of course, strangers are often unfamiliar with us and have no way of knowing what we have produced. So they need to depend on the judgements of others. And those others, in turn, need to be credible.

    Here in the United States, I'm unaware of any M.Div. programs in Hinduism. Perhaps things are different in Spain.

    You are pointing to an interesting cultural difference between Christianity and some of the non-Western religions. In the West, one prepares for the clergy, or trains in religious scholarship, by attending an academic program in a university or seminary. In the East, one prepares for the equivalent of the clergy or trains in religious scholarship by entering a religious vocation. In Buddhism, religious instruction typically takes place in a monastery, where scholarship and personal practice combine in a way that's unusual in the West (at least since medieval times).


    True. Perhaps some people do put too much emphasis on degrees.

    This seems to me to actually be an attack on formal education in general: Since people also learn a great deal informally, or in alternative formal venues like monasteries (or on-the-job training), it should be morally OK to lie about one's formal education so long as it isn't illegal to do so.

    I don't buy it.

    I do accept (and very enthusiastically) the principle of prior learning assessment though, so long as that process is credible and trustworthy. That's precisely where the fake "universities" fail miserably.
  8. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    It seemed that you were saying that because someone has worked at a job for a number of years, they are presumably competent in that job. You also seem to say that one can learn more relevant things in a job about that job than one might learn in school. You then seem to make the false assumption that then this person must be entitled to an academic degree. Unfortunately you make no reasonable argument for why they are "automatically" entitled to the degree. You also mention a couple of countries that you seem to feel is somehow relevant to your argument but it is unclear to me how it is relevant.
  9. milotach

    milotach New Member

    Re: Re: about liberian or indonesian degrees

    Please do not take all my words literally as I toldo you i can not speak on english. Here I have an answer give it in other forum for a frien that I am absolutly agree on it.

    This is why I strongly recomed the British Professional Designation system.

    Where Education + Training + Experience = Professional ( journalist, engineer or what ever)

    If one has little of Num 1 - education but lots of Num 2 and Num 3 he is still by this formula is a Professional or chartered - recognized valid PROFESSIONAL.

    The 21 year yang kid has the Num 1 but now he needs the Num 2 and 3.
    The degree he earned is very valuble starting point and will serve him for the rest of his life.

    The problem between work related degree and university atending degree is that at work the person will not learn some skills that the university will teach the student.

    But the correct way to look at this is


  10. milotach

    milotach New Member

    Re: Re: about liberian or indonesian degrees

    I am not making a general atack, I am agree 100% with your final conclusion, my only intention has been to move all of us in a more deep reflexion, I see in the most of the forums that most of the people are fightning each others only in the superficial mode, about topics on degree mill, but we need to know what is in the back door of it. Thanks for your reflexions.
  11. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    Re: Re: Re: about liberian or indonesian degrees

    In the US and Canada there is a very similar situation in many fields, it is caled resgistration. I am a Registered profesional Engineer, and this is based on my academic education plus the many years I have on the job. This was also verified by completeing a written test. In the US and Canada this is administered at the state or provincial level (probalby becuase a US state or Canadian Provence is bigger than most European countries).

    A very similar situatin exists for accoutnats and such.

    but, this does not exists for journalists and the like.
  12. MarkIsrael@aol.com

    [email protected] New Member

    Milotach wrote:

    > A degree with government recognition is ABSOLUTELY LEGAL

    The degrees of most of the colleges claiming recognition from the Liberian government are illegal to use in Oregon. I think they will become illegal in more and more places.
  13. milotach

    milotach New Member

    Dear friend do not came agian in the topic if is legal or not. I am not a sales man on degrees. The purpose of the first post is a general invitations for a deep reflexion of the phenomenon, I do not take care what oregon can say or what not, may be a degree from your college is not legal to be used in spain, laws are always dificult to understand, I am sure that a prestigious loyer with a degree from this country can fight on court against this. But this is not the question, the question are explanained in the other reflexions, not only in my own, there is a more than one very interesting. thanks for your reply.
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I think that Mark was making the point that your explicitly stated assumption, "A degree with government recognition is ABSOLUTELY LEGAL" is false. Degree mill degrees are illegal in many parts of the world even if it may appear to be legal in some parts of the world. You are the one that brought it up?
  15. MarkIsrael@aol.com

    [email protected] New Member

    Bill Huffman wrote:

    > I think that Mark was making the point that your explicitly
    > stated assumption, "A degree with government recognition is
    > ABSOLUTELY LEGAL" is false.

    Yes, I was.

    I believe that in reply, Milotach is asking to amend his original statement to "Even supposing that a degree with government recognition is absolutely legal...", so that this thread will not be bogged down with legal issues.
  16. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    Milotach; Mi amigo, en los Estados Unidos, es muy importante que un grado sea legal en la orden para lo ser aceptado por muchas entidades. Sé en España, y en la mayor parte de Europa, la situación es diferente. ¿Si usted necesita ayuda en la traducción, permitió por favor que mí sepa en [email protected]
    yo gocé España tanto, dónde está su hogar?
  17. jerryclick

    jerryclick New Member

    Previous post (in English)

    My friend, in the United States, it is very important for a degree to be legal in order for it to be accepted by many entities. I know in Spain, and most of Europe, the situation is different. If you need help in translation, please let me know at [email protected]
    I enjoyed Spain very much, where is your home?
  18. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Attaboy Milotach and Jerryclick! Congratulations for your efforts to make the forum work well for this discussion!
    By the way, real alumni of a Quaker school would presumably know how to spell G-a-n-d-h-i. Real doctorados don't make fun of a non-Anglophone's valiant attempts to use English, while apparently thinking that "enema's" is the plural of enema. As they say in Spain, mierda (so to speak).
    Milotach, I don't think I agree with your viewpoint, but I'm glad you are posting on this forum. Your perseverance is praiseworthy. Welcome aboard. Best wishes, Janko
  19. amused

    amused member

    This thread does raise some interesting questions regarding some degrees on offer from government universities. A degree in 'golf' is offered by a university in Queensland, Australia.

    I have offered wondered whether a Ph.D. in Golf would enable me to beat Tiger Woods who does not any degrees in golf to my knowledge!
  20. galanga

    galanga New Member

    bad behavior makes one suspicious

    When an organization claiming to be a university sells high school credentials to unqualified people, never having verified that the purchaser knows anything about anything; when it manages marketing ventures promising to provide tips about casting calls for "reality TV shows"; when it falsely claims IAU/UNESCO recognition in spite of multiple denials from IAU; when its "government recognition documents" are signed by someone who is also listed as staff at the organization...

    ...then one might suspect that the organization is not really a university at all and that its diplomas do not carry information about the level of expertise of the person bearing the diploma. Of course, one might be mistaken.


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