AACSB vs. IACBE

Stanford and UT (assuming UT, Austin) don't need to specify AACSB in their postings because almost any applicant will be from an AACSB school by default. They are looking at other criteria, but the AACSB issue is satisfied virtually by default. Kristie has mentioned many times that her home institution Sacramento State University has explicitly mentioned AACSB as a requirement. Many other schools do the same.

 

Tom57,

Tulsa, actually. While I certainly have no data other than the recent postings of specific openings your observation is without substantiation. Where is the scholarly data or studies? Perhaps AACSB has done some studies to document the premise you make. I find it hard to believe that this type of policy exisits considering that AACSB schools are not in the majority. Certainly would cut down on your talent and applicant pool. But, throw some facts out and I will be the first to say "yep, you are right."

But I am curious as to how the AACSB issue is settled "virtually by default".

 

Not a convincing reply.

My recommendation is that you might want to reread the book. You've done a very imperfect job of applying logic to my post. Moreover, you have failed to elaborate on your claims (such as where the weak fallacy was.). At the risk of another "post hoc ergo propter hoc" claim on your part, I'll assume this means that you're not quite sure of your claims or how to defend them. Otherwise enlighten me. Please.

It appears that you are trying to critique some ideas that you actually agree with, based on some of your earlier posts. Are you aware of that?

For your New Year's reading you might want to pick up any economics/finance text that discusses signaling theory. AACSB is a prototypical example. No equivocation here.

Cheers.

 

Tom57 said it perfectly, but to add Fed, I made the statement (that was conveniently overlooked) that they link YOU provided, the faculty bios, all have an AACSB degree. Though thtye don't mention it in their posting, all the faculty have one - I don't think a coincidence. It makes logical sense to me. Are you seriously saying that you think Stanford does not require an AACSB degree?

I know for a fact about TU, so it may not be spelled, out but if you apply with just an RA degree, expect a letter stating "thank you for your application, but no thank you."

I canpost many, many, many AACSB schools that state it in their job postings, just as you have named some that don't.

Oko - You made some statements about if AACSB's website is inaccurate, what does that say about them..... great question (and the schools I named are in the posting you read, so you must be missing them on purpose)... UC Davis and Universityof Tulsa..... just to say it for the upteenth time, in case you were serious about missing that part of the posting again.

I do wish schools didn't require it, it would make things easier, but they do. If a schools goes through the time and money to get AACSB accreditation, it would make sense that they require it of their faculty.

The website inaccuracies are an absolute disgrace. I have e-mailed them, with no result. When I was looking for a doctrate degree program, I went to their knowledge services, which was so wrong, it was unusable. So I went to EVERY SINGLE school on their website.

They really need to get this up to par, the par they require from their schools. It doesn't seem that anybody polices them, so I am not sure who to complain to...... maybe the government education system? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Her MBA is from Tulsa. Her undergrad is from Sac State, and that is the school that I remember her mentioning that required AACSB for faculty.

I doubt that there is any scholarly data on this. You could be the first! If you have time this New Year, I invite you to visit any faculty web page from a top-50 business school. Maybe even top-100. The great majority of the faculty will be from AACSB schools. Why? Because most of the top schools are AACSB certified, and top schools hire graduates of other top schools. The reason is not AACSB per se, but rather SOME of the things that make graduates of top schools attractive to other top schools are also the things that AACSB attempts to value and measure.

Beyond this, I’m just repeating myself. Again, I don’t necessarily like AACSB or think that it’s a great thing. I am merely pointing out that it’s a device that schools use to signal quality. It’s a proxy for quality – an imperfect one at the very best. Nevertheless, many schools value it, especially once they have attained AACSB status. Why else would they go through the expense?

 

Thanks for providing the teachable moment and the recommendation: "Not a convincing reply. My recommendation is that you might want to reread the book. "

Ad ignorantium: "You've done a very imperfect job of applying logic to my post. Moreover, you have failed to elaborate on your claims (such as where the weak fallacy was.).

Ad hominem: "At the risk of another "post hoc ergo propter hoc" claim on your part, I'll assume this means that you're not quite sure of your claims or how to defend them. "

I'm certainly trying to teach you to fish rather than give you the fish: "Otherwise enlighten me. Please. "

Red Herring: "It appears that you are trying to critique some ideas that you actually agree with, based on some of your earlier posts. Are you aware of that?"

I have several, so do you have any specific recommendations? "For your New Year's reading you might want to pick up any economics/finance text that discusses signaling theory. AACSB is a prototypical example. No equivocation here."

Happy New Year!

Cheers,

Dave

 

Krisitie,

post one position vacancy to support your assertion and I will shut up on that point. However, you did say most and I can not seem to find that requirement listed on any I have seen. I am absolutely stating that the right person with the right credentials will get a position at any university despite a lack of a degree with AACSB accreditation.

I am not debating the relative merits of the quality of AACSB merely the requirement.

 

Fed - You said you would "shut up" (not my words) if I could state a position that requires AACSB. That is easy,

http://www.csus.edu/fas/vacancies/Marketing.htm

(I am not a lighteneing fast researcher, I am trying to get in at CSUS, so I knew this before, so no searching was needed.)

Also, I would be shocked if Tulsa has ONE full time faculty member that doesn't have a degree from an AACSB school, I already checked Stanford, so I am feeling pretty confident that this is the fact........

 

One final thought as I leave the office... I've heard that some AACSB accredited schools will grant telephone and onsite interviews to candidates holding doctorates from non-AACSB programs, but getting such an interview is not easy and dependent upon competition for the position.

Happy New Year!

Best wishes,

Dave

 

Dave,

This is getting stale.

Is this how you do it?:

Ad ignorantium (Ad ignorantium: "You've done a very imperfect job of applying logic to my post. Moreover, you have failed to elaborate on your claims)

Hey that’s easy. I can see why you do it, and I don’t actually have to explain how and why you’ve made an argument from ignorance.

Fish comment = cop out. Sorry no other words for it, and I’m left thinking that you actually don’t know how to catch fish yourself.

I do have specific recommendations:

See Economics, Organization and Management, by Milgrom & Roberts.

Also see classic paper by George Akerlof (recent Nobel winner) on “The market for lemons: qualitative uncertainty and the market mechanism” in the Quarterly Journal of Economics (1970).

Also google "signaling theory" and ignore those hits that refer to radio signals and the like. Plenty of reading for the New Year.

Ok, I’m signing off. Sorry to the readers who had to suffer through this.

Happy New Year to you.

 

Kristie,

thanks, I hereby officially state that I know of at least one school that requires degrees from an AACSB accredited program. Sorry, couldn't shut up until I admitted it existed.

Happy New Year!!!!



P.S. What was the original thread?

 

There are plenty others, and I didn't expect you not to respond - I like the discussion!

 

Again - to note - AACSB accredits DEPARTMENT'S only, not certain degrees. Though there are some who are giving inaccurate information on this thread saying otherwise, I again ask for an example of one degree being offered that is not accredited at an AACSB school. It does not exist! That is why ALL degrees coming from the school of business at an AACSB school are accredited...... I just wanted it to be clear, in case there was more confusion with inaccurate statements above.

 

Two Replies to Kristie

First, with respect to degree programs - What you are saying is true - but somewhat misleading. AACSB permits degree programs to be "excludable" from accreditation if:

"To be excludable, programs must be clearly distinguishable from the included programs by title, by published descriptions and in representation to potential students, faculty and employers. The intent is to avoid exclusion of programs when such exclusion would create confusion about which programs of the institution have achieved accreditation".

One example that I've mentioned repeatedly is Central Michigan's Master of Science in Administration. The degree isn't offered by the business school, but lives in the "College of Extended Learning".

I think this case borders on "confusion". "Administration" sure sounds like "business" to me especially when they offer concentrations in areas like HRM, IT, Leadership, etc. Also, course titles from this program sure sound like business courses to me. The MSA program is offered all over the country. The MSA isn't AACSB accredited. However, it is offered by a university that is AACSB accredited - at least the busines school is.

Second, the discussion regarding teaching in a business school with a doctorate from a non-AACSB school is interesting. You are correct to point out that if you want to teach in a top business school, a degree from an AACSB accredited program is the ticket. However, there are numerous examples where a person is teaching in an AACSB school with a degree from a university (or department) that is not AACSB accredited. For example, there are Nova Southeastern grads at AACSB schools (Ball State for one and I know of others). Also, business schools often employ faculty that aren't from business discplines - economists, operations researchers, etc. - and, hence, don't have degrees from AACSB accredited programs.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Two Replies to Kristie

Yes, but that is in a seperate department, much like ISU's Technology Management degree, it is not accredited AACSB, since it is not in the business department. But if it is in the department accredited (which Grenoble's is) - it is accredited. I am glad someone understand it - it is a confusing things, with all of their guidelines (which I think they purposely make confusing). Thank you for the clarification - I hope others see the light!

On the other subject, teaching - there are expections, as you have stated. Also, I do realize the schools in my area are a bit different than everywhere else, but it is stated in balck and white. I was told even if I were a great part time faculty member, I could not get my foot in the door for full time.

True comments all around...... I was beginning to worry!

 

Re: Re: Two Replies to Kristie

Kristie - In considering full time faculty positions you'll want to think about the type of institution that you want to teach at.

Top business schools are very competitive places. Assistant profs have to work very hard to merit tenure - and in some cases, may not get it despite excellent work.

There are some 1200+ schools in the U.S. with business degree programs. 350 or so are AACSB, another 150 or so are ACBSP.

If a school in your area gives you a hard time regarding where you earn your degree - don't be bashful about shopping around. You may find a better opportunity elsewhere.

Regards - Andy

 

There are a number of articles addressing the shortage of PhDs in business:

http://www.aacsb.edu/publications/enewsline/vol-2/issue-8/jf-lead.asp

In part:

Many deans of PhD-producing business schools claim that one of the primary reasons they are aggressively reducing PhD production is that the program is consuming too many resources, resources that can be redeployed to improve the ranking of the MBA program. Unfortunately, such actions are likely to be shortsighted and not in the best interest of PhD producing business schools and management education.

or:

Report: Doctoral faculty shortage threatens business schools

http://www.fairfieldcountybusinessjournal.com/current_issue/111703ffoc03.html

http://www.esc-rennes.fr/en/news/nibs/index.php

 

Re: Re: Re: Two Replies to Kristie

Does tenure come with time at a school? I have no clue how this works.... does anybody else? Or is it dependant on the school?

There is a shortage, but it is purposeful shortage. I asked the rep at Berkley why they didn't accept more applicants (about 1/2 accepted), they said they see it important to keep demand high, so their graduates have a pick of schools to get employed by.... very sad.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Replies to Kristie

Kristie - Tenure takes a number of years to obtain - typically 6 years. One has to prepare a portfolio that shows accomplishments in areas such as teaching, service and scholarship. The expectations vary depending on the school in question. Top schools expect publications in top journals - some of which accept less than 10% of the papers submitted. The evaluation of one's portfolio can be somewhat political

Another problem comes in the fact that some schools cap the number of tenured profs they'll allow. One school I know says that no more than 75% of the profs can be tenured.

Regards - Andy

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Two Replies to Kristie

Andy, So somebody can go the 6 years, get publsihed, but their evaulation makes them get rejected as tenured? Wow, I need to get up to date on how this works. Is it defined in the union agreement or contract, or more informal?