AACSB vs. IACBE

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Tarbuza, Dec 27, 2003.

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  1. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

  2. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    and if you really like government stuff...

    http://www.opm.gov/hrd/lead/Policy/policy.asp

    Essentially, the US government (sorry, I keep forgetting that there are guests from many locations) does not get to the level of much below regional and national accreditation concerns. In fact, there are provisions for funding education that has either no accreditation or is specialized in nature. It would be nice for some of you folks with a position (stance) to holler at the OPM or DOD folks or others as I believe a disservice is done when all the essential elements of academic education is not presented to the workforce. Since education is something to take with you upon retirement it would be great if more defined guidelines were evaluated and implemented. With the increased educational level and skill sets needed to respond to the President's Management Agenda government folks should more closely mirror their commercial and academia counterparts.

    Alternatively, the US Government is satisfied with levels it has identified and does not find AACSB or other further defining accreditation as necessary.
     
  3. Han

    Han New Member

    I took your link, but think you have proved what I am saying:

    As of December, 2003, 466 member institutions hold AACSB business accreditation, of which 163 have additional specialized accreditation for their accounting programs. 54 Accreditation Council members are outside of the United States.

    34 institutions with undergraduate only programs ( 7 percent of members)

    40 institutions with graduate only programs (8 percent of members)

    392 institutions with both graduate and undergraduate programs (85 percent of members)

    This means that 40 institutions only have graduate programs and do not offer undergrad programs. Not that they only have accredited one or the other.

    Harvard - I checked their website, and it is not that the undergrad program is unaccredited, it is that they don't offer an undergrad program. If they did, it would be accredited.

    Here is my link to try to convey my point ... http://www.aacsb.edu/accreditation/standards.asp

    As a specialized agency, AACSB International grants accreditation for undergraduate and graduate business administration and accounting programs.

    Can you provide an example of a program THAT IS OFFERED (not Harvard, since they don't have an undegread program - if it does not exist, obviously it is not a good example of an un-accredited degree, since there is no degree being offered) that one degree is accredited, but another is not. Like XYZ University has their undergrad degree acredited, but their master's degree is not????? That is what I am looking for, right now I stand by AACSB accrediting programs, not specific degrees.
     
  4. Han

    Han New Member

    Two questions then :

    1. Why do Public Univerisities require it to apply to full tim faculty positions - they are a part of the government .

    2. Does the government run the public sector, no, so there is a need.

    I hate to be the one saying that AACSB is worth something, because I don't think it is, other than a check the box. I wish the box did not exist, I didn't write the rules, and would not mind them changed.
     
  5. w_parker

    w_parker New Member

    Well spoken, the government does indeed fund various tests, degrees, etc, and not all are RA. Higher accreditation means little to the government, in fact to be accredited by AACSB you must, at a minimum be RA... I have read that some employers do not pay TA if it is not an accredited program, and Uncle Sam pretty much follows suite, to a point. In my case, in order for my employer (Federal Government) to pay my tuition, there are a few stipulations--it must be an accredited program, and I must have, after 6 SH of classes have a decided degree path to follow. Conversely, if I am pursuing a non-accredited (read RA) than the program must be accepted by the government, ie. various certifications, like Cisco and Microsoft, and in the case of a friend of mine, flight school. Really, there are other programs out there that the military will pay for, but in my case, as a degree seeking student, both under grad and grad, the minimum accreditation I recall was RA. In the case of professional accreditation, the accrediting body includes RA at a minimum in its standard. Not sure if this helps, but it is an interesting topic.
     
  6. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Kristie,

    I am not devaluing AACSB. Merely stating it is not recognized as a national or regional accrediting body by the dept of ed. Those that are meet the standards for the federal government. These may be viewed as minimum established. Certainly there is no limit for betterment of educational programs by stricter accountability within its ranks.

    Public universities are not a part of the government (I'll grant you limited exception with military academies). They do however, have to have the USDOE recognized accreditation to receive federal money.

    I can not attest to the full-time faculty issues since most of my experience has been in the technology field (engineering, etc..) and ABET was the issue. (Speaking of which when are you folks gonna discuss some technology career fields in depth?) And, alas, all my friends with MBAs graduated from AACSB schools.

    (hmmmm?)

    I will take a look at some of the professional requirements for professors at the military academies.

    Lastly,

    switch to decaf :D
     
  7. w_parker

    w_parker New Member

    Public schools fall under the domain of state government, which follow the basic requirements of federal standards. The federal government funds state schools, yes, but, they only require basic guidelines in order to receive federal moneys. As some may recall from Not-For-Profit and Governmental accounting, these funds are released to the state education in question and are disbursed as the state sees fit, as long as the state uses these funds in the prescribed way that the fed requires, which does not include a professional, non-governmental entity.
     
  8. oko

    oko New Member

    Kristie7, it is inaccurate to say that Harvard does not offer undergraduate courses in business or accounting. They do. Within Harvard, there is Harvard College which the undergraduate arm of the University. I did a program at Northeastern University in Boston along Huntington Ave/Mass Ave and I am very familiar with the area. In fact, I considered Harvard Extension Scholl - the fees drove me away. Back to the point. Those saying Harvard do not offer undergraduate business courses are inaccurate. Again, a classmate of mine at graduate school in the 1990s was a graduate of Harvard College.

    On the AACSB issue, the fact is Grenoble's accreditation does not include the PhD program according to the site. To say the AACSB web site is inaccurate believing what one wants to believe. Of the schools recently accredited, AACSB indicated what level of accreditation namely undergrad, grad and PhD. I have said again and again, AACSB or the likes of it is not necessary. Grenoble is a fine school. The fact that their PhD may not be accredited by AACSB is irrelevant. I just wanted to point it out that since you seem to have made that optional accreditation a corner stone of your choice that you may not have made the right choice and I realize the choice is yours.

    If I were using AACSB as a sole criteria to deal with candidates on any issue, Grenoble remains unaccredited at the doctoral level according to AACSB's own statements on the web site. See aacsb.edu and follow the link to new accredited schools. Otherwise, why would AACSB indicate the levels of accreditations of other schools and leave out the doctoral level for Grenoble? Just curious.

    Again, to say Harvard does not offer undergraduate Business is grossly inaccurate. I think some of us cannot swallow the fact that Harvard's undergrad is not AACSB accredited.

    A school accredited by AACSB was recently placed on probation by a regional accrediting agency for mismanagement of funds, poor academic performance and the likes of it. The school was featured prominently on the National Public Radio nationally. The school is still listed as accredited by AACSB at both the graduate and the undergraduate level. I will not divulge the school's name but suffice it to say it is the Southern part of the United States. Now you can see the reason why I do not put so much weight on professional accreditation that is only on paper and is not independently tested through certification exams or licensure.

    I can also point to AACSB school whose students do poorly on the CPA exam. Until business program accreditation bodies come up with a national certification exam that leads to licensure, they remain a paper tiger no matter how much member schools pushes them. They simply do not make the cut in the real world market place.

    Have a great day. Enjoy your program and think less of ACCSB because it is not as important as you think.
     
  9. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    oko,

    I could not find any "concentration" listed as "business" in the Harvard catalog. Courses normally completed in a business degree are available through various schools. The link below seems to distinguish the accreditation conferred upon Harvard College vice the Harvard graduate programs.

    http://www.harvard.edu/siteguide/faqs/faq114.html

    Thoughts?
     
  10. Han

    Han New Member

    It looks as though the Harvard offers classes, not degrees, so again, no example can be given.... Still waiting, but that is OK, it doesn't exist, so that is why.

    Secondly, I have talked to AACSB and they confirmed that my program is accredited. So between a website and what I have been told by the Director of AACSB (in writing), I know which I will believe, if you don't, that is OK.

    There are several schools that are classified that they are accredited with a Master's program, but they do not offer classes, or degrees in the Master's or Doctorate area - would you still say they do if the program does not exist.

    Don't believe everything on the internet, it is not always accurate, investigate and find out.

    It is irrelevant on this forum, only with research committees and the like, so I am confident that they will do their homework.

    Also, the link I have on the school, doesn't state the program (since they don't accredit degrees). I don't feel like I know very much on this forum, but AACSB is one area I have done the research.

    http://www.aacsb.edu/Knowledgeservices/Omd2/Profile.asp?id=12455

    On a side note - look at UC Davis - They don't offer a doctroate program, but the AACSB website says they do. If I went by the logic above, I would mandate UC Davis to offer the program, becuase the website could not be wrong :D

    (I could name MANY others, but I will also contact AACSB and see if they can correct the website, but they haven't with UC Davis, so they probably won't with the others).

    Also, look at the University of Tulsa - They better start offering that Doctratae degree that AACSB says they have accredited..... :p (they don't have one).
     
  11. oko

    oko New Member

    Kristie 7, for years (since the mid 90s), I have not bothered to look at Harvard catalog but my classmate had a Business Studies or something in that line degree from Harvard College and that is not debatable becuse I know him. Also their Extension School has the program as well. With regard to AACSB accreditation, until they change their web site about the schools they accredit and the programs and levels of their accreditation, I remain unconvinced about what people say and what they AACSB have on their web site. I have repeatedly said it does not matter. I am discussing this for the sake of discussions. It has no bearing on whether your program is good or not, in fact it is becuase of your preference for AACSB that prompted my question. If AACSB is the gold standard as many believe for business accreditation, then it is failing because of waht I have posted earlier about some of the schools that have AACSB accreditation. Again, I think the most important thing is RA or equivalent for success unless a particular accreditation carries with it eligibility for licensure or some other certification.

    I like to say I will only be regular in this forum just for one more day or so, may be less. I have been on holidays for a week from school and work. I will be back in school next Monday and I need to do some assignments before classes start. If I do not respond after today or tommorrow, I am not ignoring you it is back to business until mid March 2004 when I will have another week or two for some spirited discussions in this forum.

    Those who think DL education is easy have not done real DL education. All my education before now have been B&M schools and I have never have to do this so much work for school then again, I have not taken doctoral courses anywhere else either. Enjoy your coures and worry less about whether your school has University or not after its name as some have ignorantly alluded. It is irrelevant. What is relevant is accreditation to award doctoral degree not names. The naming nomenclature (sp?) of schools varies from country to country. One country cannot impose its own on another.

    Have a good one.
     
  12. Denver

    Denver Member

    Oko, I seldom like to get involved in these debates, but since I am a Harvard graduate (’93) I feel that some things need to be corrected.

    “Kristie 7, for years (since the mid 90s), I have not bothered to look at Harvard catalog but my classmate had a Business Studies or something in that line degree from Harvard College and that is not debatable becuse I know him. Also their Extension School has the program as well.”

    Harvard Business School. I attended HBS as part of my program – there is not undergraduate degree at Harvard Business School. I’m sorry if your friend told you he had one; however, in one of Dr. Bear’s earlier books he mentioned thousands of people who have claimed a Harvard degree that do not have one – so your friend is not alone. That said, there are numerous Harvard “credentials” that one can earn through executive seminars – but they do not have academic credit. As far as extension school, again I have some experience in this area – I had friends who attended the school, I used to live down the street from the school and knew people that worked there – when I was there they only offered an AA ALB ALM and none of them were in business. However, to make sure I went to the website and it is the same as when I was there http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2003-04/programs/;jsessionid=FFCOFHLBKJIB

    “Those saying Harvard do not offer undergraduate business courses are inaccurate. Again, a classmate of mine at graduate school in the 1990s was a graduate of Harvard College.”

    Yes, Harvard does have an undergraduate school. However, the only business related courses I could find were in economics and this does not a business degree make. http://www.fas.harvard.edu/home/academics/deptwebsites.html


    “Again, to say Harvard does not offer undergraduate Business is grossly inaccurate. I think some of us cannot swallow the fact that Harvard's undergrad is not AACSB accredited.”

    I agree about the grossly inaccurate part concerning an undergraduate business degree at Harvard – however, I differ on who was inaccurate.

    However, there is another part of your post that left me confused too:

    “I can also point to AACSB school whose students do poorly on the CPA exam.”

    I am also a CPA, member of AICPA and teach accounting at four schools. I am not sure how performance on the CPA exam has anything to do with AACSB accreditation concerning a specific school – especially given the 150-hour requirement for the exam, which may mean the candidate has attended more than one school. I know that you seem to think so, and I respect your opinion, but those that take the exam are usually accounting majors – and based on my research most business students do not major in accounting . I am at a loss to see how this links to AACSB.

    “A school accredited by AACSB was recently placed on probation by a regional accrediting agency for mismanagement of funds, poor academic performance and the likes of it… I will not divulge the school's name but suffice it to say it is the Southern part of the United States. Now you can see the reason why I do not put so much weight on professional accreditation that is only on paper and is not independently tested through certification exams or licensure”

    Please, having grown up in the Southern United States during the civil rights era I have had more than enough of “dumb southerner” allegations without having to deal with what appears to me to be an urban legend type allegation. If the school was mentioned on NPR then it is in the public domain and naming it would be helpful to us all. “Mystery school filled with southerners who under-perform” is not a helpful post.

    Note: Disclaimer, I am a student at GGSB with Kristie. However, nothing in this post pertains to the GGSB debate, and I agree with Professor Kennedy’s post completely on the need for any further debate on that issue; however, I felt that I should make some corrections concerning credentials/schools/locations that I have first hand knowledge of.
     
  13. atraxler

    atraxler New Member

  14. oko

    oko New Member

    Denver, you seem to be offended about my “Southern State" statement. Don't be offended and my apology. The statement was not meant to be demeaning in any form to Southerners because I am one. I am a Southerner in the eyes of the law and from New Orleans, LA. I actually had my Bachelor degree from Southern University in New Orleans and still very much tied to Louisiana by way of taxes, voting and family ties. The reason I would not disclose the school is because it has had enough although most of their problems were self inflicted, there is no need for me to keep re-opening it and would like it to go away to enable its graduate move on. What I was trying to say is if AACSB was so good why didn't they catch the issue. Why would the regional accreditor put the school on probation and not AACSB? I stand on my statement that unless a professional accreditation leads to eligibility for a professional exam, it is not necessary.

    Accounting is mostly in business schools. I don't know if you read about this AACSB issue before, it keeps re-occurring and we keep saying the same thing over and over again. There have been statements on this board about not being eligible to write the CPA exam unless you were a graduate of AACSB program. We all know it to be false and as an accounting professor you know this more than I do. All I have been trying to do since registering on this board is try to debunk some inaccurate statements whenever I see them. As a recent immigrant who has been fairly successful by all government indicators without any god fatherism or motherism, if you like, through education, I always like to offer what I know free of charge to people whenever possible. I have a few close success stories. Frankly, I don't believe one school is better than another (I know that is controversial) but I do believe individuals are more motivated than others - it is the motivation that differentiate individuals not necessarily the school they went.

    I careless whether Harvard offers one program or another. I do not intend to go there and there is no need for to researching. I do know that a former classmate in graduate school had his Business degree from Harvard College. I know this and I also just verified it from my graduate school graduation school brochure since I can't immediately get hold of the individual.

    There are too many hear say statements on this board masquerading as facts and whenever I see them and I have the time I always try to take on some of them. Have a good evening.
     
  15. Han

    Han New Member

    Oko,

    I think we have always agreed on the question about the worth of AACSB, and I also am having some issues wiht inaccurate statements made.

    I don't know what to do about them, but respond with what I know, but I am not sure how many times is enough, but not too much. I guess it is a judgement call. You seem to do well on the same, but there are a few statements you have made that have been questioned and you move on, when otheres have conflicting info.

    I think we both think we are right and have the facts on this issue - I will try to get more info, but it will take a few days. More to follow.....

    As always, I like the debate, but facts are facts, and I wish we could all come into agrement on the facts, and then discuss the opinions - but I guess you can't have everything in life.

    Still waiting on that program I have been asking everybody for.......
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2003
  16. oko

    oko New Member

    Kristie7, I think it is time we move on because this issue is taking on a life of its own. I guess we can all believe what we want to believe and facts remain facts. Many of us know what is applicable out there although sometimes we may want to color it to our want and taste and that does not always change the truth.

    I am not against AACSB or any other additional and or optional accreditation that adds value only to the eyes of the beholder. I think I have said that long enough. Some of the schools I attended have such accreditation as I have said before but it was not the reason for my attendance. I just have issue with those that claim if you don't graduate from such schools you are somewhat limited. Even Harvard often bring in celebritites and people of high accomplishment (not always graduate of Harvard) to teach classes for a semester or two. That means the school knows that experience and high achievement can be gained from people. Many people from government and industries often without high academic (doctoral credential) go on to teach at fine institutions based mostly on their experience. I am not saying that should be a substitute for doctoral degrees.

    If my former classmate had no Business undergraduate from Harvard, my school would not have published it. There are more to be said on this issue.

    My main aim on this board is to encourage anyone to seek degree from what ever school they desire as long as it is regionally accredited or its equivalent and not let people's opinion sway them to wrong decisions because at the end of the day it is the individual not the school that may end up being tested. I have been fortunate to work and still work with some of the best minds in medicine and health from Argosy to Yale. One thing that I have taken away from such incredible exposure is that schools don't make people. People make themselves. Enough said.

    I can't recall what you asked about a program. However, let us not belabor this issue. I am sure it would come up again in the future.
     
  17. Han

    Han New Member

    Oko, If you need to bow out of the thread, that is OK, but there were questions before your postings, and hopfully we can get back to them.

    My original question was can anybody name a programa in which one degree is AACSB accredited, while the other is not (i.e. MBA is , but their undergradte degree is not). You stated, Harvard, which is inaccurate, and it was questioned, but that can be left alone -

    So I state to all those who are in the discussion, since it was a question to whether a degree is AACSB accreidted or a program. I still say a program, until I hear otherwise with ONE example - making the DBA at Grenoble accredited.

    I can only go on facts at this point.
     
  18. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Hi. The point in my original post was that the cost of hiring more professors to do the same amount of teaching, which "pays the freight", regardless of the outcome, is cost prohibitive for many small schools.

    Dave
     
  19. LBTRS

    LBTRS Member

    The AACSB website holds the answer

    Kristie7,

    On the AACSB website it says that Grenoble is accredited for undergrad and masters degree's, doctoral is specifically absent. Does this answer your question?

    AACSB Website

    Hope this helps,
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2003
  20. vical

    vical New Member

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