AACSB vs. IACBE

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Tarbuza, Dec 27, 2003.

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  1. Han

    Han New Member

    Re: The AACSB website holds the answer

    No, Please read above - Grenoble's program is accredited. That is the entire reason for the question.
     
  2. vical

    vical New Member

    Lack of AACSB doesn't appear to have hurt Nova Southeastern either:

    http://www.sbe.nova.edu/

    They are IACBE accredited:

    http://www.nova.edu/cwis/about-nsu/accreditation.html

    The business school is named the H. Wayne Huizenga School of Business and Entrepreneurship:

    http://www.sbe.nova.edu/about/wayne.cfm

    In part:

    A household name in the state of Florida, Mr. Huizenga is the owner of the National Football League's Miami Dolphins and Pro Player Stadium. He was also awarded the franchise for the Florida Marlins Major League Baseball team – the state's first – and the National Hockey League's Florida Panthers. His affiliation affords NSU students the additional benefit of being able to watch the Miami Dolphins during the off-season at NSU's main campus–which houses the team's training facility.

    Mr. Huizenga now acts as Chairman of AutoNation Inc., Extended Stay America, Republic Services, Inc. and Huizenga Holdings, Inc

    Finally:

    Wayne was not cut out for college. Wayne dropped out of school after only 3 semesters.

    http://www.ltbn.com/fame/Huizenga.html
     
  3. Han

    Han New Member

    I don't think anybody here has ever said a school can't make it without AACSB, the schools above, Devry, Nova, etc. are all fine schools.

    Unforunately, schools that have AACSB accredited, in most cases require their professor's to have a degree from an AACSB school. That makes the market for schools with AACSB.

    Are these others schools any less of quality, I would say no, but I would say, you usually can not even apply or be conisdered to have the minimum requirements met at a school that has an AACSB accreditation and looking for faculty.

    Most people are not looking to get into academia, so the market is large for RA schools - it all depends on what your final outcome is - a personal choice.
     
  4. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    I think we can say once and for all, Harvard does NOT offer an undergraduate business degree.

    AACSB certification is like any other certification. It’s a signal. It signals that the school maintains a minimum set of standards in teaching, funding, research etc. Not every school that has the certification will be a world class business school, and there are good schools (however you want to define it) that don’t have the certification and don’t care.

    Nationally (U.S., that is) prominent schools have AACSB certification not because they are running around chasing certification, but rather it’s probably the other way around. AACSB will of course certify the Harvard’s, Stanford’s, Wharton’s etc., because they have to. If AACSB doesn’t certify those schools, then they have an immediate legitimacy problem of their own. I certainly can’t say for sure, but I imagine that when AACSB first formed and developed their standards, they probably looked at world-class schools and tried to figure what sort of fundamental standards those schools employed and whether it was reasonable to demand those kinds of standards from schools with lesser resources and reputations.

    So if you’re a national or world-class business school, your AACSB certification tags along for the ride. If you’re a lesser school, then maybe you decide to invest the time, money, and resources to go after the AACSB certification as a signal of a certain base level quality in your program. In so doing, you distinguish yourself from similar schools who decide not to invest the resources. Belmont University has AACSB, but is not Harvard, nor will it ever be. However, that’s not what AACSB certifies, and presumably Belmont has no illusions about that, and neither do its students.

    AACSB schools hiring only faculty from AACSB schools further enhances the value of the certification, and thus further distinguishes AACSB schools from non-AACSB schools. It has value not because it necessarily ensures that the best faculty are hired, but because enough schools subscribe to the practice either directly or indirectly. Harvard, generally, is only going to hire faculty with PhD’s from other world-class schools. Again the AACSB tag is only along for the ride – and of course Harvard cares not a whit about that per se, but rather what sort of research did you do? Who was your advisor? Do you add needed expertise to their faculty? Are you likely to do world-class research for them? What have you published, and where? Belmont University is not in a position to screen on those criteria – so they screen on AACSB. At least that way, they bolster their own standing as an AACSB school to some extent.

    This is not unlike the practice of top-tier MBA’s hiring nothing but other top-tier MBA’s. Having a top-tier MBA is a signal of: a) you’re either pretty smart or a really hard worker, or both, or you wouldn’t have gotten in; b) you were willing to get your butt kicked for 3 years (whether or not you actually learned anything; c) as a result, you’re probably willing to get your butt kicked on the job – and companies like this of course! Lesser MBA’s try to piggy back on this as much as possible, but of course with less effectiveness, hence this obsession, as Prof. Kennedy notes, with quality, prestige, name recognition etc, in MBA/business programs (and all other programs for that matter).

    You want to sell your used car and you offer a 6 month warranty. You’re trying to signal that your car is not a lemon. Many fine used cars are sold without warranties. Some used cars with warranties turn out to be lemons. Given a choice, and only being able to kick the tires and glance under the hood, most of us probably take the car with the warranty. It’s the same with AACSB.

    Sorry for the long-winded post. I guess I should be more productive on this New Years Eve. Happy New Year!
     
  5. oko

    oko New Member

    Kristie7, I have to bow out after today for reasons already stated. I am simply not smart enough to work full time, go to school full time at the doctoral level with family commitments and still have time to banter here regularly unless I am on holidays such as this week.

    I have to say I admire you and all others on this board pursuing accredited education. It is not an easy task. As far as your question is concerned, it has been answered many times by me and others and most recently by Ray. Your answer is right there at the AACSB web site. Grenoble is accredited at the bachelor and master's level and they left out doctoral level conspicuously. There were other schools at the site they listed all three - undergrad, grad and doctoral. Why is that? You or Grenoble needs to call AACSB to clarify that on their web site. Otherwise for me looking at their web site, Grenoble remains unaccredited by AACSB at their doctoral level. The web site also listed percentages of schools that have certain levels of accreditation. Why did they do that? Finally, they also listed schools with accounting accreditation. I am not a fan of additional and optional accreditation that leads to no certification. It is all money making.

    I have repeatedly said it is not true that AACSB schools only hire AACSB graduate. It may be true for some schools but certainly not all and I have repeatedly given examples. In the past someone linked me to a school add for instructor in a paper I cannot recall. My response is if a school would not hire an MBA/CPA or higher degree with a multi million dollar thriving accounting practice for lack of AACSB, that school is the loser not the applicant. I have also said two of my relatives graduated from Framingham State University outside Boston last year and they both work for Price WaterHouse making money. If Price Waterhouse isn't a success story, I don't know what is!

    Some of the schools I attended have some of this alphabet soups accreditation. They were never important to me. I never state them on my resume because they are meaningless and it has not hurt my ability to move from one job to another and most recently December 1 this year beating out 7 other candidates two of whom have doctoral degrees. That does not mean that doctoral degree is not important (I am enrolled in one).

    My mission on this board is simply to encourage individuals to pursue accredited degree preferably RA or equivalent because it works. If it works for immigrant family it can work for everyone else. My mission is also to debunk statements that may discourage anyone from pursuing his or her dreams because of irrelevant requirements. If the number of private emails I have received from some individuals on this board is anything to go by, I have already succeeded.

    Lack of acceptance of DL, AACSB, IACBE (sp?) etc etc is only prevalent on this board. It is not an issue at 99.5% of employment market out there. I sat on a board that screened candidates for prestigious appointment and there was an Excelsior graduate who went on to graduate school and performed very well at his certification exam was one of probably top 5%. Was he accepted? I leave that to your imagination. The issue of DL did not arise. My colleague is a graduate of Yale and she does not even look down at DL education. Once she sat by me listening on my live class at Touro and she was very impressed with the professor with doctoral degree from Harvard and the mode of delivery.

    I bent on debunking the notion that you have to have degree from certain schools to teach or work. I have been offered adjunct faculty three time this year alone unsolicited. These same individuals will probably consider me for full time faculty if retired today. I have been appointed to school program content development board in Baltimore, MD unsolicited. Education works, all you have to do is, do it well and earn it correctly. All other unimportant issue should be limited to personal preference. Personal preferences must not be misinterpreted as the norm because it is not.

    Krsitie, I think you and I pretty much agree on many issue except one thing that Gronoble is not accredited by AACSB at the doctoral level. I said it does not matter because it is a fine school. However, if you were dealing with people fixated on AACSB and they have the same reading and understanding of the
    Web site as Ray and I, you may encounter problem because the site says, it is not accredited. I will now bow out. Have New Year and see you again around March, 2004 for another spirited discussion. I can always be reached privately via email
     
  6. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Ok a couple of other points (please, someone give me some work to do!).

    1. If you have done world-class research (or even really good research), but you have a PhD from a non-AACSB school, I guarantee that Belmont Univ. will hire you.

    2. Same situation as above, but you apply to Harvard. Harvard will look long and hard at you before hiring you - not because you came from a non-AACSB school per se. Rather, they will look long and hard because your school is not on their radar, and they have never heard of your advisor, and maybe you published your excellent research in an obscure journal, and how is your PhD from Popcorn A&M going to look on their faculty page and catalog?, and they can't find anyone that they actually know and trust to vouch for your intellectual abilities.

    Again, many of the things that matter to top schools are satisfied by many of the schools that have AACSB - but not all of the schools and not all of the things that matter. AACSB, probably turns out to be a necessary but not sufficient condition for quality in most cases.
     
  7. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    This narrative amused me, but I don't have time to fully explain why... and I just can't hold my nose that long anyway... ;-)

    Best wishes,

    Dave
     
  8. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

  9. oko

    oko New Member

    Thank you Fed. Those are the types of adds that I see in Wasgington, area, Boston, Phoenix, and many cities I have lived and worked. Solid work history, achievements, publications and many other attributes will beat out irrelevant and perceptual requiremenst any day, any time. I have seen it happen too many times.

    AACSB ethusiasts would want you to belive otherwise. I have never used any accreditation initials in my resume and will never do so. No one has ever asked either. Have a great day.

    Have a great day.
     
  10. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Of course. Certification has no value unless it's impossible or prohibitively expensive for some schools to pursue it. If all schools could jump through the hoops and obtain certification, then it wouldn't mean much.

    Small business schools generally don't place a premium on research. Hence they hire faculty to teach. AACSB requires at least some emphasis on current research as a signal that the faculty is at least somewhat familiar with the latest developments in the field. AACSB won't ensure that the faculty wins Nobel Prizes, but it will screen out schools that can't afford to support research. Important to some, meaningless to others, depending on your perspective. No surprises there.
     
  11. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

  12. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Non sequitur: "Of course. Certification has no value unless it's impossible or prohibitively expensive for some schools to pursue it."

    Black-and-white fallacy: "If all schools could jump through the hoops and obtain certification, then it wouldn't mean much."

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc: "Small business schools generally don't place a premium on research. Hence they hire faculty to teach. "

    Equivocation on "familiar": "AACSB requires at least some emphasis on current research as a signal that the faculty is at least somewhat familiar with the latest developments in the field. "

    Argument from false analogy: "AACSB won't ensure that the faculty wins Nobel Prizes, but it will screen out schools that can't afford to support research."

    Good point: "Important to some, meaningless to others, depending on your perspective. No surprises there."

    Hope it helps,

    Dave
     
  13. Han

    Han New Member

    Tom 57 - Very well said!! (long posting a few back)!

    Oko - If the website is the holly grail, can you please explain the 3 other schools (and MANY others) that AACSB say on their website that they have accredited, but no such degree is offered????????

    Here is where I asked long ago and nobody wants to admit this:

    look at UC Davis - They don't offer a doctroate program, but the AACSB website says they do. If I went by the logic above, I would mandate UC Davis to offer the program, becuase the website could not be wrong .

    (I could name MANY others, but I will also contact AACSB and see if they can correct the website, but they haven't with UC Davis, so they probably won't with the others).

    Also, look at the University of Tulsa - They better start offering that Doctratae degree that AACSB says they have accredited..... (they don't have one).

    Also, you also state the website says it is "not accredited", I disagree, it only omits its (a small difference, but still inaccurate).

    My frustration is that you keep making statements, and when I respond with FACTS, you say it does not matter, and let's move on - then keep responding to this thread with the same comments

    So, I have made several questions (and repeated the important one here), can you respond to this, maybe I am missing some logic, but I don't think so.
     
  14. Han

    Han New Member

  15. Han

    Han New Member

    OK, I know about this school, and I spoke to several faculty members about faculty positions (first let me say this is NOT my opinion), but...

    According to one, reputation is essenital.

    According to another, reputation would not even matter, if it was awarded via distance learaning (Yes, this came from my distance learning professor!!!)

    But all said AACSB is imperative.
     
  16. oko

    oko New Member

    If AACSB can't clean up their web site to reflect good and current information then it supports my assertion that their accreditation is meaningless since it does not lead to any certification. You are one hand saying believe AACSB web site on some issues but not others. If they can't clean up the information on their web site how good is their record keeping? They are supposed to be the gold standard for business program accreditation. Right? This is my problem with money making accrediting organizations that leads to no certification. What three schools are you talking about? I never mentioned any three schools without a program..... I said three out of four of my schools have irrelevant alphabet soup certifications which were never a consideration in my attendance. I said Northeastern is now one of them having clarified that they were infact AACSB accredited by you. I read an Allied Health Program at Northeastern and was only concerned about writing my certification upon graduation in 1995. I was not concerned about AACSB or any irrelevant certification sinec I was not in business program there. I have mentioned all my former schools on this board and it is not worth repeating here.

    As far as I am concerned and some on this board have said so as well, if you are interested in AACSB doctoral accredited program, Grenoble is not the right choice according to current information on AACSB web site unless of course, they intend to seek such accreditation in the future. I will change my views when the information on the web site is updated. If I were you I would forward this discussions to AACSB or Grenoble. It may very well help them. This does not in any way change the fact that Grenoble is a fine school with or without AACSB. You really need to investigate this issue if it is very important to you instead of rationalizing it. You don't want to get to the middle of the program (or worse at the dissertation stage) to find out that Grenoble is not accredited at the doctoral level by AACSB. I have always have the understanding that doctoral level needs no accreditation at the program level but things change quickly for money of course. For example, AACSB now accredit accounting program. Previosuly, departmental/program accreditation was usually enough. What is driving this? Money.

    You don't want to be at the interview with an AACSB ethusiast arguing or rationalzing what you have been saying. AACSB's web site is pretty clear - Grenoble is accredited at the undergrad and grad level in business program. Until the information is changed at their official web site, it remains the fact.

    Honestly, I am only concerend about your stated preference. To me, I careless about any other accreditation except RA or equivalnet and those that lead to certifications. Thank God there too many fine employers and even colleges/universities that do not care about these alpabet soup accreditations that often has to be explained to make me lose sleep over it. I am preparing to go to church now. Have blessed New Year.
     
  17. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Nope, doesn’t help much.

    The first point is certainly not non sequitur. You pointed out that AACSB places a burden on your friend’s department because if they insist that their faculty members teach, they must spread the teaching load over more members. I pointed out that this is one of the purposes of any certification process – for it to have value, not every one can have it.

    Second point: not a black and white fallacy as far as I can tell. You’ll need to provide more detail here.

    Third point: If you read this as A implies B, thus A causes B, you’re jumping a little too vigorously at the logic bit. The point remains that smaller schools with less in the way of resources can’t always place a premium on research. As your friend’s example points out, it’s an expensive proposition. Thus not all schools will be AACSB certified, and that is the way it should be.

    Fourth point: where is the weak analogy on which you base your claim?

    Last point: no argument. You’re right on target here.

    Hope this helps.

    Tom
     
  18. Tom57

    Tom57 Member

    Forgot this one. Sure, I readily admit equivocation here. In fact, AACSB is an equivocation process. It can't stamp absolutes on anything. I am hardly a die-hard defender of the practice, rather I'm just pointing out that it is doing what it's designed to do: differentiating schools based on some standard criteria. It does so imperfectly, at best (a little like your application of logic and rhetoric to my post).
     
  19. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Kristie,

    your quote

    "Unforunately, schools that have AACSB accredited, in most cases require their professor's to have a degree from an AACSB school. That makes the market for schools with AACSB."

    I merely grabbed a high-tier (Stanford) and UT (sorry, I do not know their standing) vacancy link.

    There is no requirement for the AACSB stated in either case.

    Again, what empirical data exists to support your statement?


    Show me position announcements at major universities that stipulate the AACSB requirement or please amend your position to that of your opinion. Again, you stated "most".
     
  20. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Recommended reading for the new year: "Missimer, C. (1990). Good arguments: An introduction to critical thinking. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall."

    Cheers,

    Dave
     

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