Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by Taxing, Sep 14, 2015.
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Not quite sure where you have seen this but I just reviewed each of the 3 Post-Doc Bridge programs and all say PhD or Earned Doctorate. Sorry but a JD does not qualify as an "earned Doctorate". The only program to not say PhD (at Toledo) lists the qualifying academic disciplines and unfortunately Law is not one.
"Please submit this application form with curriculum vitae, statement of purpose, and Ph.D. transcripts via email at"
AACSB-Endorsed Post-Doctoral Bridge to Business Program | French Business School | Grenoble Ecole de Management
AACSB-ENDORSED POST-DOCTORAL BRIDGE TO BUSINESS PROGRAM
Admission & application
The eligibility requirements for entry into the program include an earned doctorate with an established ability to conduct research. While other disciplines will be considered, the primary disciplines include:
Industrial Organizational Psychology
Engineering - all disciplines
Sciences - all disciplines, particularly:
The only Bridge program that could work in your favor is "The AACSB Bridge Program" for Executives. This program amazingly lists nothing about qualifying degrees.
AACSB Events | The AACSB Bridge Program.
Unless you worked as very senior level executive (SVP or possibly VP at a large company) this would be a real long shot. I suspect that one would have a difficult if not impossible time becoming tenure track with this option. The brochure lists quotes from a "Lecturer" and "Adjunct Professor". Hmmm.
Your only other option as you list is a DBA (or PhD) program.
The UF Bridge Program accepts JDs. Here are links to the bios of JD-only participants in the academic accounting PDB program at UF:
Look into UK programs. I'd check first with Warwick, which has a worldwide reputation far exceeding either Kennesaw or Georgia State, which are good schools but nowhere approaching Warwick. Robert McGee, who has posted here before, received his PhD in accounting by research only through Warwick. I don't know about what residencies he had to do, but it can generally be arranged with minimal travel. And heck yes, they are AACSB.
Now, another issue, why do you need a DBA or PDB? You are AQ right now to teach taxation at an AACSB school. Cal Tech, for example, arguably among the top five universities in the U.S., was recently advertising for a tax prof in accounting and they were looking for either a PhD or some combo of JD/LLM/CPA--and you have all three. Boise State was looking for the same in a recent ad. If you look around, you'll notice that about one out of every four tax positions in accounting advertised on Higher Ed Jobs or The Chronicle of Higher Education job search sites specifically mention the JD/LLM or JD/CPA as an acceptable alternative to a PhD in accounting. As for those who advertise "PhD in accounting required", if you contacted the chairs and asked about their potential interest in a JD/LLM/CPA with experience as a tax attorney, you'd likely hear some say "Yeah, sure, shoot me a vita, we're interested." This is something that I know and do not have to speculate about, I teach full time in an accounting department at an AACSB university, and tax is the highest demand subcategory of accounting, which is itself perhaps the highest-demand field in academia. Profs are starting in the range of $140 to $200K, and departments are desperate for tax experts.
You have a very nice combo platter there with the experience, JD, LLM and CPA. My former department chair (who was a very nicely-paid head over 20-some accounting profs), had your credentials exactly. The only possible gap is your vita is teaching, I don't know if you have any experience there, and you should get some if you haven't taught before. You should also join the AAA and perhaps think about some publishing. With a bit of adjuncting and a peer-reviewed pub in a tax journal, I bet you'd be fighting off the schools bidding for your services, so long as you are not crazy or have bad body odor--and even then, in taxation, concessions are often made.
By the way, Taxing, I'm working on three articles right now, one in taxation, two in fraud. I am interested in a collaborator on the third, a professional in industry would be perfect. And if you're not interested in the third article, heck, we could start up a fourth that hits your areas of expertise. I have published in taxation before in an academic journal. Unless you've done so, you need some publishing experience, I can help you get it and learn the ropes. I need more pubs, and you can help me with that end. Quid pro quo. If you're interested, just reply here, then we can start a PM exchange and exchange email info. Your call.
Would that be Kennesaw State University and Jacksonville State University? If not, who?
For a TT position, nobody cares what your professional experience is, or how good of a teacher you are. They care about how much grant money you can pull in, and how much research you can crank out.
Even if you do the UF AACSB Bridge program and become "qualified", I would think a JD only holder would be at the bottom of the pile against someone with a research background. Part of it would depend on which law school you graduated from.
My advice: Call the graduate advisor for the accounting department at UF (or any big accounting AACSB university). Tell them you are a JD considering the Bridge program or a traditional or part-time PhD/DBA program. See what they say. They would be more up-to-date on what the academic market is like right now.
I totally understand what you're saying as applied to many fields, Endo, but in accounting, hardly anyone gets grants (those are virtually all sucked up by the hard sciences and sometimes social sciences). In eight years specifically as an accounting academic at a good-sized uni, I know of exactly one colleague who landed a grant, so no department chair in their right mind makes that a criterion (except maybe the tip top schools, who can afford to be unreasonable).
They do care about professional experience, they love accounting academics with Big Four experience, business in general requires professional experience, they're not so hot on people who try to blow into a business academic position straight from a PhD program without at least 3 to 5 years fighting the good fight in industry. I know of only one colleague who got a job without business experience, and that person has a PhD from Yale and exudes brilliance and competence--kind of a special case.
Finally, as for taxation/accounting, again, this is my field and I follow the market big time. It is stupid hot, ridiculous hot, insane unreasonable hot. A JD/LLM/CPA is not at the bottom of the pile, there is no bottom of the pile in taxation for a qualified candidate, unless you want to define "bottom of the pile" as $100K a year for a TT 9 month position. At least for anything bigger than a tiny liberal arts college, that's the bottom for a qualified new hire in accounting/taxation, at my school they start at $140K+, at the larger universities in another part of my state, the salaries run more like $190 to $200K to start.
By the way, Taxing, if you want to specifically teach accounting as opposed to taxation within accounting, such as teaching principles of accounting or Intermediate I,II,III, audit, international, AIS, etc., your best bet is to pick up 15 to 18 grad credit hours in accounting, that would get you qualified and kosher at the average university. Maybe employ a two step attack: get in the door via taxation, then, while at the university, take a grad course a semester on the side, should get you there or close in a couple years so you could work your way all the way into accounting. But still, that taxation slot would be good enough to be a bona fide member of the TT accounting faculty at an AACSB.
Thank you for your input. I'm interested. An interest in financial fraud is part of why I went to law school. PM me.
As a JD and LLM holder I am already "qualified" in taxation and business law. The bridge program would be to extend these qualifications to accounting. JD holders are actually quite common as business faculty. My JD is from a top 25 program. I graduated Magna Cum Laude. I was an editor on the law review and worked as a research assitant for a tax law professor. My LLM is from one of the top 3 schools for tax law in the US. After graduating, I did a federal clerkship which is essentially a year of doing research and writing for a judge.
I have talked to accounting professors. The recommended route is of course to do a traditional PhD program. I am really not able to consider traditional programs at this point. The brige program is still relatively unknown. A "big accounting AACSB university" (UF is a top program) is not as likely to be interested as one of the hundreds of other AACSB accredited business programs at small to midsize universities. The market for academically qualified faculty is supposed to be very strong right now. There are not enough graduates from PhD programs in accounting to fill the available positions and it is projected to get worse due to retirements.
I have thought about taking the extra graduate credits in accounting. Although, I would be fine just teaching taxation. Really just looking to add to my qualifications to help land a position. I have debated about whether I would be better off trying to get a year of a DBA program under my belt than to take the accounting classes.
Wow, I humbly stand corrected (at least in practice - the application does say "PhD".
I love how the last individual lists the Bridge on his CV:
Program grants the same initial “Academically Qualified” status for 5 years from the AACSB as a Ph.D. in Accounting from a properly accredited school
S'alright, I seldom stand humbly corrected, I try everything I can to wiggle out and justify myself when corrected. Ask my wife, kids.
As I said, the combo you have is sufficient to get on the TT. Look what posted this week:
Assistant or Associate Professor (#495318) - Accounting & Business Law; Full-time...
Qualifications: The successful candidate must have a LL.M. in Tax or a PhD (or ABD near completion) from an AACSB accredited program or from an institution with an equivalent reputation.
By the way, what anyone wanting to get into academia in accountancy should be loving is this: Not only are they coming down off their ivory pedestals and "dipping down" into the LLMs (if it be proper to call that a "dipping down") and treating them as equivalent to the PhDs, they're also going in and hiring people straight out of PhD programs when they're not even set to do the viva yet. Some people are probably getting hired with just the coursework when they've scarcely even started their dissertations yet, and they have jobs lined up @ $150K waiting for them next fall right after they defend. Our last hire? We snagged him from a DBA program last fall, he defended a couple weeks before he started here last month. I don't even want to think what he's going to make, probably almost twice what I make.
Another thing job seekers have to love, the accounting programs are getting desperate enough that now they're starting to say "AACSB or equivalent institution." Beautiful words. In my mind, that opens the door for UNISA, Heriot-Watt, pretty much any UK Royal Chartered uni, non-AACSB Aussie schools, New Zealand, etc.
I attempted to reply yesterday but it apparently did not post. So here it goes again....
Thank you for all the information. I am definitely interested. PM me.
I am actually already "qualified" in tax and business law. I'm considering the Bridge program to extend the qualification to accounting to go along with my CPA. JDs are actually very common in business programs and law relates to business, especially accounting, much better than most fields. I am a magna cum laude graduate of a top 25 JD program. I was an editor on the law review for the school. My LLM is from one of the top 3 tax law programs in the US. After law school, I clerked for a federal judge which is essentially a year spent researching and writing for a judge.
I have talked to some accounting professors and most have encouraged me to pursue a PhD in accounting. The bridge program is still relatively unknown. The academic market in accounting is supposed to be excellent right now. I am not trying to break into "a big accounting AACSB university" as much as one of the hundreds of midsized AACSB accredited universities.
I have thought about pursuing this route. I would be fine teaching taxation and am really just looking to make myself more marketable. I wonder if I would be better off expending the effort and funds on the first year of a DBA program. I think the KSU program is 48 hours and the first year is 18 hours.
I have been watching the postings and have noticed a couple that specifically mention the JD/LLM. Getting the family on board with another move may be more difficult than finding a position! There are a couple postings with local universities that I have decided to apply and see where it takes me. Do you mind sharing which DBA program the new hire came from?
Sounds like I may need to go back to UF to do the bridge program in accounting!
I tell you what, Endo, I am not kidding, you get into a DBL program and do it, you will be rocking in accounting. If you have any interest in the field, any reasonable education in it, even in undergrad, you can make that one work for you. That is no joke or idle talk. You can also do the other business fields if accounting seems unpalatable. I have a colleague who did the marketing track at the UF DBL, PhD in sociology, no biz background that I know of, and that person landed a job in marketing with us, an average state uni, for $130K.
In all candor, you're good to go now. Again, the only ugly thing is if you have no teaching experience. If I were you I'd be all over adjunct positions. I bet you'll be starting fall 16 with a position > $140K.
I have no real teaching experience. I have been a presenter at some CLEs. I am hoping to adjunct something in the spring or summer.
Which would be hilariously ironic. As an undergrad at UF, I had to take "Intro to Financial Accounting" as a requirement for my ops management major. Since it had the title of "into" I thought it would be a piece of cake.
I was so wrong.
As it turns out, that class was also a weed-out class for accounting majors since UF is a large state university, but the program could only take so many a semester. The class was brutal, and I hated it. I said I would never work as an accountant, ever.
Fast forward to today, I'm a cost and price analyst for the DoD. Since the audit agency is so backlogged and overwhelmed, pricers like myself have been tasked with doing more audit-type work where I have to deal with esoteric things like cost accounting standards. That's karma I guess.
Are you referring to DCAA? I know several people who work for that agency.
The intro to accounting class is a weed-out at most schools. I was a marketing major when I took it. I enjoyed it and switched majors. Then I took intermediate accounting which was the weed-out for the people intro didn't weed-out. The classes seemed to be more reasonable after those two.
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