43% of Harvard's White Students are ALDC Admits

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by sanantone, Nov 20, 2021.

  1. a_feineis

    a_feineis New Member

    This is a demonstrably false statement. Table 11 of the study clearly shows what admissions demographics look like under various scenarios. Under a scenario where LDC preferences are eliminated, white admits decline by 204. Under a scenario where athlete preferences are eliminated, white admits decline by 303. You said eliminating all black people would open up more spots for Asians, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and we can merely look at a model where racial and LDC preference isn't policy. Under such a model, black admits decline by 68.6% (939 of 1367). Similarly, the same model shows a 41.9% decline in Hispanic admits (573 of 1365). White admits increase by 3% under this scenario, and Asians increase by 51.1%..

    The data doesn't appear to show that the elimination of AA would dramatically impact the white admit rate. Asians appear to bear the largest burden of AA by far. Perhaps this lawsuit isn't the white supremacist conspiracy theory the media is alleging. Asian students might just be upset at losing out to academically inferior Hispanic and black applicants.
  2. a_feineis

    a_feineis New Member

    Harvard Extension = Harvard University
    Harvard Extension =/= Harvard College
    felderga and Maniac Craniac like this.
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    This again? It doesn't matter what people here say. Harvard University itself says HES is one of their schools. QED.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  4. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    Precisely, that's my argument. If Harvard Extension = Harvard (and you agree), then technically Harvard is open to everyone. It will take in everyone and their mother (or father). In fact, I think that was the original purpose of the Extension School - to "extend" a Harvard education to the masses, first in Massachusetts, and now the world. That's mainly because it's the worst kept secret that Harvard College is, never was and never will be "fair" in terms of admissions. The faster people understand that, the faster everything in the world makes sense. Nothing in life is fair. Everyone is born with either disadvantages or advantages, regardless of race or demographics.

    Fairness is what Harvard Extension is for. Consider it Harvard's penance to cleanse itself of unfairness. So via Extension, you can't get any more egalitarian than Harvard. I rest my case your honor. ;)
  5. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    If Harvard College = Harvard University and
    Harvard Extension = Harvard University, then, by the mathematical rule of transitivity:

    Harvard Extension = Harvard College

    LOL. :D
  6. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member


    All Harvard University schools are Harvard University but all Harvard University schools are not Harvard College.
    smartdegree likes this.
  7. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    I was thinking about this issue again and one component not being discussed: application counts. It's not just admission rates that you should look at, you should look at application counts.
    Since Asians are way over-represented at Harvard and their admission rate is (slightly) lower, then it is only logical that Asians apply to Harvard at an unbelievably higher rate than the average person. That makes a lot of sense because Asians (like me) are primarily prestige w***es when it comes to anything brand related (see article below).


    Basically, does it make sense for Harvard to admit so many prestige w***es? That doesn't make sense. You would change the entire culture of the Harvard class. So it is reasonable to take cultural values (not race) into consideration when making decisions. I am Asian myself and I sure wouldn't want to be in a class consisting primarily of prestige-seeking people (regardless of race). That would make the college experience unbearable. I want diverse views on life - arts, love, business, opinion, etc.

    For those that would argue that it's not prestige that the Asians are looking for but rather Harvard's education quality, I call BS. If education quality were the issue, the local state flagship probably has the same quality of instruction. Heck, you can also go to Harvard Extension to get Harvard quality if prestige is not your goal.

    tldr: No.1 reason Asians want to go to Harvard is prestige. Having a class of mostly prestige-seekers is not in the best interest of diversity (cultural, not race) at Harvard. I speak as a person with multiple Asian heritage who understand the prestige-seeking Asian cultural mindset.
    MK1980, Johann and Maniac Craniac like this.
  8. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Your going to lose your case on appeal, barrister.

    Harvard and Harvard Extension are not the same thing. I agree with Steve that a degree earned via Harvard Extension is a degree from Harvard. But the experience of attending a university is far more complex than that. The advantages gained in being "at" Harvard are huge. THAT Harvard is hardly "open to everyone." Case dismissed.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  9. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    I object, your honor.

    1) Last I checked Harvard College and Extension are just part of the schools that make up THAT Harvard. THAT Harvard is called "Harvard University". An overwhelming majority in the world view Harvard University as the prestigious brand name elite institution, of which Harvard College is just a sub-component. You can debate that fact, but you will lose your case Sir. Look at all the world university rankings - they say "Harvard University". Ask any random educated person if he/she will think an MA or PhD at Harvard University is worth less because it is not Harvard College.

    I don't personally know anyone use Harvard College on their linkedin or resume - it always says Harvard University. Even Harvard recommends Harvard College grads to list Harvard University on their resumes.

    To be honest, as an Asian, the word "College" is not prestigious. It is seen as a lesser name, in the general sense. Ceteris paribus, if you have the option to use University, use it. My cousin graduated from Columbia College. He always says he graduated from Columbia University. 100% sure Asians would prefer to call it Dartmouth University.

    2) So far, I have not heard of any university focusing on diversity for each component school, save for Harvard (because of these nonsense complaints from prestige w***es). My point is that diversity issues should be analyzed from a university-wide perspective. Looking at components is not useful because there are distortions and exceptions everywhere. Consider STEM departments in all major US universities. You can go through the list of PhD students at any top school and you might make the (inaccurate) conclusion that they admit Asians exclusively.

    It is an open secret that HBS, for example, tries to diversify its class by limiting candidates with similar ethnic backgrounds - so being Asian is seen as a huge negative and you would need a GMAT score far in excess of the median if you are from India or China. I've never heard anyone say HBS is unfair, only unbelievably hard to get into.

    3) You can be "at" Harvard's campus by being enrolled at Extension. Extension is not just a distance learning school.

    Thank you your honor.
  10. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    I think the same that Harvard Extension = Harvard University but a coworker calls HES a poor mans Hawaii.
    We argue about this issue form time to time.
  11. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    Do they serve pina coladas?
  12. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Assuming you mean the Columbia College that's a constituent part of Columbia University, that's fine.
    smartdegree likes this.
  13. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    Columbia College of Columbia University. Fantastic school.
  14. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Although elegant, this response is filled with irrelevant information and does not address the issue directly. Those with access to HES do NOT go through a similar experience as those admitted to Harvard University proper. They also accumulate dissimilar outcomes.

    Motion denied.
  15. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    As long as its not the Columbia State Univ.
    Anybody remembers that one :).
    smartdegree likes this.
  16. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    That is a strong statement that requires substantial evidence. Do you have any data to back that up? I know they don't publish graduate outcomes.
    Oops I forgot you don't like data. So what you have is probably anecdotal evidence (typical for Rich Douglas).
  17. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Whatever your deal is, it stops now. I've given you some time away from this forum to cool off. If you come back swinging, you can expect a much longer time off.
    SteveFoerster likes this.
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I love data. That's one reason why I've done a deductive doctoral dissertation using quantitative data and inferential analysis, and one inductive doctoral thesis creating a grounded theory from qualitative data.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  19. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    It's your call, but I do regret this. I was trying to wrangle my way out of the conflict he was creating, trying to avoid such an outcome. Oh, well. As he said before, he's posted on this board using multiple ID's, so we might be blessed with his contributions sooner than you think.

    Anyway, thank you.
  20. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Here's a whacky idea...

    Let's stop with the exclusive admission game. Internet learning can allow for scaling so you're no longer limited solely by the number of dorm beds and classroom chairs. While some disciplines cannot be taught online others absolutely can. For years our society has promoted the idea that middle class kids need to work themselves to oblivion with the right balance of grades and extracurriculars to get into a school like Harvard. Why? Consider that some elite schools are also land grant schools and have county based programs throughout their respective states (Cornell in New York, for example). These schools have the resources to expand their reach and to make their degrees something that almost anyone could have access to. But that would make them less exclusive.

    We've always liked to pretend that it is about these schools only taking "the best." And things like this prove that it isn't really the case. Nor do I think that only our top 3% of students can excel at Harvard. Again, situations like this prove that some pretty ordinary kids can thrive in an environment like this.

    What worries me is that people look at this and say "This is bullshit. These kids shouldn't have this advantage!" when I think the narrative we should be pursuing is "how do we give more people this privilege?"

    One way would be if Harvard loosened some of its transfer guidelines. It's not only possibly but incredibly common for Cornell grads to transfer in as third year students after attending a community college. Part of that is that half of the university is technically state schools administered by Cornell. From what I have gathered from others transfer of community college credits to Harvard is not nearly as easy. Again, why?

    We all know why. Hedge Fund Harry doesn't want his alma mater's brand being diluted by allowing plebeians to put the same diploma on their walls. Being a Harvard alumnus/alumna is much less "special" if it isn't really hard to get through the front door in the first place. I just think it is a dated and unhealthy model. People from all walks of life could and should be able to benefit from these elite institutions. We've seen successful programs expanding access from schools that are by no means diploma mills. But the elites hang on so that they can remain elite.

    As for Harvard Extension = Harvard. Of course it does. Anyone who claims to the contrary doesn't understand how universities of that size and scope are structured. Unlike smaller universities where the degree, effectively, comes from "the university" larger universities are more decentralized. The "college" within the university you attend is not a mere formality as it pretty much was when I was at the University of Scranton. It's the reason why a typical UofS MBA alumnus will say "I went to the University of Scranton" versus someone who went to Penn for the same degree saying "I'm a Wharton alumnus." Part of that is, naturally, that Wharton has greater brand recognition than Kania, of course.

    The same sort of debate happens on a smaller scale with Cornell with some people arguing that graduating from any of the contract colleges (Human Ecology, Industrial Labor Relations, Vet, Agriculture and Life Sciences) isn't "real" Cornell a fact that Cornell directly disputed when Ann Coulter came out at Keith Olbermann because he went to CALS. Incidentally, Mr. Olbermann, while I understand his point, is incorrect (or was correct at the time he graduated but not now) that diplomas make no reference to the college. They do. There is one within eye shot as I write this. First line, Cornell University. Second line "School of Industrial and Labor Relations." Still a Cornell diploma even though it isn't from the College of Engineering. Same with Harvard. It's a Harvard University degree. It isn't a Harvard College degree. It isn't a Harvard Business School degree even if it focuses in Management. It isn't a Harvard Divinity School degree even if your focus is in religion. That is where some of this debate stems from.

    While Harvard Extension is a good thing and does, in effect, admit everyone. Using it as a "gotcha" is disingenuous and ignores the bigger issue. My point is that you should be able to get the same degree as an on the ground student if you meet the requirements. and Harvard Extension or Extension style programs should be actively marketed not just to mid-level professionals who want some Harvard bling but to the students who otherwise would find a Harvard education inaccessible. But that latter point only matters if the degree itself isn't a second class degree.
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