4 Week BA

Discussion in 'CLEP, DANTES, and Other Exams for Credit' started by Lewchuk, Aug 1, 2001.

  1. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    OK, you have now stepped off the cliff into stupidity.

    First, there are a number of schools (including some in the US) who admit students into grad programs without an undergrad and second, HW does not matriculate without evidence of competency (for example, with an undergrad you could start in Scotland and finished DL... not possible otherwise).

    Here are a number of credentials earned entirely through exams... CPA, CGA, much of the University of London programs, etc.... the issue is not proficency exams

  2. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

  3. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    What is the difference between the 40 exams and the bar... or the CPA... or HW... RIGOR. You have many degreed, practicing accountants who take prep courses and study for months and STILL fail the exam. Trying to compare this to a "BA in 4 Weeks" is ridiculous.

  4. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Some states do not have an experience requirement, particularly for holding a certificate (vs a license to practice).

  5. Ike

    Ike New Member

    I don't think that this type of statement helps any person to understand your point of view. It also does not help you to make your point.

  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator Staff Member

    Well, that alleged 1/2 legitimate degree got me accepted to 3 graduate schools. All of which, I might add, require an accredited Bachelor's degree for admission, unlike Heriot-Watt's MBA by exam.

    For the record, I have no problem with HW, just with the incredible hypocrisy of someone tut-tutting an exam-based degree, while at the same time pursuing an exam-based degree. It's one or the other Ken, you can't have it both ways.

  7. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Yes, yes, Ken, but let us resist the impulse to crass abuse, and stick to substance.

    But that wasn't at issue, Ken. The question was, which real school accepts students into their MBA program without the need for even one freshman credit.

    Isn't it true, that only one MBA program requires no evidence of even basic competence for admission (we will deal with the fiction of matriculation next)? Is that not the very program from which you will shortly graduate? Is it not fact that you "passed" as few as six or seven proficiency tests, each comprising typically two or three short essays and a simple multiple choice component?

    To recap:

    You entered an unaccredited Business graduate program with no minimum admission requirements. Anyone could enter. They accepted you.

    You received (if typical) exemptions totaling as much as 25% to 30% of the whole program, not based on prior MBA graduate study, but on some vocational/experiential industry designations, and/or perhaps upon prior undergraduate study. An MBA based on undergraduate credit . . . terrific!

    You took no classes, submitted no assignments, and the sum total of official required reading was one, repeat one, loose leaf pamphlet per course.

    Some indeterminate time thereafter (one can suit one's self when to test - how convenient), you, or another, representing themselves as you, entered an anonymous
    room, far from the prying eyes of examiners, wrote a few short paragraphs, ticked a few boxes on some minimal multiple choice set, and . . . <drum roll> you're an


    I would ask you to consider, however, given the above, whether you are qualified to pass judgment on the integrity of anyone's degree.
  8. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    An unconvincing non-answer. It assumes too much (such as that everyone who tries a BA in 4 weeks succeeds in all the tests and that all practicing accountants would succeed in a BA in 4 weeks). Do you want to try again? What exactly is the difference?
  9. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    For the nth time, I have absolutely nothing against exam based degrees... sheeesh.

  10. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    To Recap:
    I suggested that a legitimate BA cannot be earned in 4 weeks.

    You go on a tired about my hating proficiency exams.

    Then you attempt to discredit one of the finest educational systems in the world, a 2nd tier public University, rated #1 in the UK for TQA, a business program rated top-tier by the economist, a business program whose standards are confirmed by (among others) the University of Glasgow.

    Then you get into this wierd "mine is bigger than yours" thing.

    None of which, of course, has anything to do with completing a BA in 4 weeks.

  11. Lewchuk

    Lewchuk member

    Let try this again, since the first illustration was too complex for you.

    The accepted standard for 1 credit hour of study is 50 hours of work. A 3 credit course will have 150 hours of work. A 4 year degree will have 6000hrs. How this time is divided depends upon the subject and pedagogy (lectures, labs, writing, reading, etc.). In a legitimate course by assessed by examination, this time is often spent reading, sythesizing and preparing for the examination.

    Now this is an average figure, of course there will those who take more and those who take less. However we need to understand that the exams in a legitimate program are difficult to pass without some preparation, even for those who work daily in the areas covered (definitions are forgotten, theories aren't recalled, etc.). This doesn't consider the "breadth" component of a BA, where a persons familierity is obviously weaker. I think it is easy to see that, although a gifted individual may be able to reduce the time from average, to say that you can reduce 6000 hrs to 160 hrs is quite ridiculous.

    The legitimate degrees by examinations rarely offer the opportunity to significant reduce the time to complete a degree. The average time for the HW program taken 100% by DL is, so I am told, 3 years. Of course it is 1 yr full time. My understand is that this is the same for the UoL degrees.

    Finally, as a comment. I have taken credit course for most of my life. I have several "degrees", all from legitimate but some from "far less than wonderful" institutions. These "lesser" degrees have served me reasonable well but with hindsight I would might make different choices and generally would not recommend these schools. However, unlike some, I feel no great need to pretend that these degrees
    are equal to Harvard... a 4 week BA is a 4 week BA. Maybe some need to complete a doctorate from Fielding and do some self-therapy.

  12. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Yet you offered no evidence in support your assertions (hardly suggestions). You engaged in no meaningful dialogue. You simply careered from one sneering accusation to another.
    I take it you meant "tirade". I did not say you hated proficiency exams, indeed, I pointed out several times how often you have used them yourself.

    Oh please, spare us the hubris.

    Since I am a product of that education system and spent 16 years in it, I hardly think it appropriate for you to lecture me on its merits. There is an admonishment about not teaching one's grandmother to suck eggs. I suggest you heed it.
    I have no idea what that might mean.
    Penny dropped, I see. That was the point of it. I used your technique of baseless innuendo and spurious association to mirror your behavior in this thread, which sadly, has been disgraceful. I set out the reasons in the guide "BA in 4 Weeks", why it was possible for around 15% of motivated, mature adults attempting these exams, to complete all requirements for a degree in under a month. It has to do with accumulated knowledge, native wit, and a lifetime of practiced formal and informal learning. I subsequently reiterated the rationale ad nauseam in various debates on this board. I invite you to read one or more of the same.

  13. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    How sweet. Thanks for explaining the bloody obvious. The BA represents 120 undergraduate credits, representing 4-5 years of traditional study. The H-W MBA represents about 36 graduate credits, representing 2-3 years of traditional study.

    The BA therefore represents roughly three times the credits and twice the work compared to the H-W MBA.

    There is an accountant at work who, if he didn't chop the test preparation time that you suggested for the H-W exams at least in half, I'd be shocked. I say that because he has a staggering amount of competance and experience in that area through 30 years of accounting practice. If you have no pre-existing competance yourself or no long-term memory, you'll probably require the entire, suggested preparation period (or more). That's the way it works. It isn't complicated.
  14. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Why do I get the impression this has much more to do with your ego than BA in 4 weeks. Every academic program I have ever entered has taken me significantly less time to complete than officially allotted. Be the program full time, part time, or by examination.

    That applies from Scottish "O" grades and "Highers" (which I took as an adult) where I never attended a class, through UK HNC and HD, where I attended only when threatened with expulsion, through two US bachelor's degrees completed by examination, through MCSE vendor exams. I am not proud of it, but the truth is I've always done as little as possible and at no time have I ever come near the thousands of study hours officially required or expected of me. Never. Not remotely.

    Are you going to say that this means all of these qualifications are without merit? All of them? In most, I hardly did a stroke. And Ken, I doubt I am alone in that. Born lazy, I tried to do just enough to meet my goals.

    Remember that BA in 4 Weeks states that around 15% of mature, motivated, intelligent adults could likely meet all degree requirements in under a month; about 60% could complete requirements within 6 months, and 90% within a year. That you could not attain that performance in a legitimate program, does not mean others cannot. Others can and others do. That some can, does not mean a program is substandard. Consider it is your performance that may be substandard relative to this majority, and that it is your ego that is bruised by the realization that, relative to others, you can't hack it.
  15. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    I think it is true that though many law schools do not require *clinical* legal education (i.e., judicial clerkships, externships, law clerking, etc.), I know that many of my law school classmates do in fact choose to take electives in externships, law clerking, etc.

    Law school is very flexible at surface, allowing the student to choose their own electives after the first year, but in all realism, these electives are illusory and few. In practice, most students take very similar programs in order to prepare for the Bar--not just the partial Bar required first year subjects. Many students also take clinical electives and work in some sort of legal clinic or law firm in order to gain both experience and an advantage for future employment. Thus, whether there is a madatory clinical side or not, the smart students will actually have such by the time they are done with law school. The study of law is just liberal enough to allow people to shoot themselves in the foot by not pursuing any clinical work while in school.

    As for me, I had a year of general legal internship in my second year and 1 semester of estate planning/tax internship in my last year.

    I know that medical school graduates go into a residency program for additional training and specialization. While the new U.S. lawyer doesn't call their first few years of law firm work as "residency," in practice it really is. They do very basic legal work as entering associates and gradually move into bigger responsibilities as their supervising attorneys deem their skills ready.

    Of course, there are always the few who after the Bar, go straight into practice with no additional supervision and training. In my experience, these tend to be more second career people with business savvy and some sort of track record to learn things on their own. They could also be ones unconsciously longing for a client's malpractice suit or State disbarment action.

    Most new lawyers (especially if they're 25/26 years old) will work for a firm (or gov't) and do menial legal work (legal residency) for a few years. The ones enjoying the corporate or larger firm environment will stay and hope to make partner. The ones enjoying more autonomy and the entrepreneural spirit will form their own firms or just practice solo.

    In short, regardless if there are mandatory *clinical* legal education in U.S. law schools or not, many law students do take that route with the proper electives. Regardless if the U.S. mandates post law school *apprenticeship* or not, many new lawyers in the U.S. do work in that role as beginning lawyers anyway.

  16. Yan

    Yan New Member

    Just for information, the external MBA offered by Royal Holloway of the University of London requires a minimum registration of 28 months and the maximum registration is five years (for part-time studies). No residency is required. The external London MBA has been offered since 1999.

    The entry requirement for the program is

    a) a second class honours degree; or
    b) a first degree + GMAT 550 or more; or
    c) an equivalent professional qualification (obtained through examinations) + GMAT 550 or more; AND

    THREE years' relevant working experience; AND

    an advanced level of ability to work in English (proof must be sumbitted by those foreign applicants).

    The program consists 6 compulsory core courses + 2 elective courses + a compulsory research course. Each course has assignments and a final 3-hour examination. In addition, students need to submit a 500-word research plan and an international business research report of 12,000 words (excluding bibliographies, appendices, project statement or executive summary) at the end of the program.

    Some Colleges of the UOL (e.g. SOAS) have the policy that the final examination will not be valid if students have an incomplete assignment record (I don't know whether it applies to Royal Holloway MBA or not).

    The course fee is around $9,000 - 10,000.
  17. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    As for the 4 week BA discussion, it is very hard for me to imagine how the average person can show BA proficiency by continous exams within 4 weeks. I'm not saying it is not possible, it is, but I thought it was limited to the very few like "Doogie Howser, M.D."

    Within the thread, I read schools like Excelsior rewards one for the knowledge one attains, regardless of where, how, etc. It's a great concept and I do agree if it can be done at a reasonably high test level. If I had to prepare for tests that would cover sufficiently the materials I learned in my Bachelors, I don't think I can review sufficiently in less than one year. Assuming I can, I don't know if I can retain enough information at the test taking standards I experienced in my Bachelor's program if that same standard was applied within the tests in the 4 weeks. I have enough problems with remembering what I studied last semester, nevertheless, subjects that were years ago.

    By the way, I have a Bachelor's with double majors in Industrial and Systems Engineering and Religion. All that math and ancient languages in addition to the dozens of other courses that aren't consistently used in daily life--I can't imagine taking less than a year just to prepare--passing it is another thing.

  18. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Yes, well, I am sure we are all better informed now. BA in 4 weeks details how a Liberal Studies degree can be earned in 4 weeks, not math or ancient languages.
    The courses were chosen carefully to minimize potential stumbling blocks, so math credits were minimized and language credits eliminated. It is perhaps useful to try to think beyond your own limited experience when considering this matter. It might also help to actually read the guide in question before passing judgment. Should you deign to do so, it is likely you will have no further need of imaginings.

    For anyone actually interested enough in the subject of the thread to read the original guide, the latest revision is available at the following URL:
    http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=10&as_scoring=r&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=Lawrie+Miller%27s+BA+in+4+Weeks&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&as_umsgid=&lr =&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=1995&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=8&as_maxy=2001
  19. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    Specifically, what school was that, when, and what was the degree program (BS, BA, B?)?
    An unusual combination for majors to be sure . . . or was that a double concentration / specialization? Do you remember how many semester hours (or quarter hour equivalent) made up each subject comprising the double major?
  20. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    In fact, given your experience, it is probable to could complete requirements in 4 weeks.

    Don't fancy doing a second bachelor's to prove the case, I suppose?

    Well then, how about a second B degree in Psychology in 3 hours? Go here:
    http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=10&as_scoring=r&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=Lawrie+Miller%27s+BA+in+4+Weeks+-+Earn+a+2nd+BA+in+3+hours&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject= &as_uauthors=&as_umsgid=&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=29&as_minm=3&as_miny=1995&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=8&as_maxy=2001

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