‘It’s tough to get out’: Caribbean Medical School Fails

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by AsianStew, Jan 10, 2022.

  1. AsianStew

    AsianStew Moderator Staff Member

    I've read this article on the NYTimes site, but because there is a paywall, I found another posting on another news site... Anyways, this article talks about how medical schools in the Caribbean fail because of the lower success rates at matching residency for off shore medical schools. It's roughly 60% matching versus 94% match in the USA... someone in the article was lucky enough to match in Canada though!

    Link: ‘It’s tough to get out’: How Caribbean medical schools fail their students (sanjuandailystar.com)

    Here's another one I found on reddit, reposted about "I have a PhD in not having money". The NYTimes article has been copied into two replies. Basically talks about a Harvard Medical student notices the disparity between the rich/poor who attend Harvard Medical school...

    Link 1: ‘I Have a Ph.D. in Not Having Money’ : college (reddit.com) There is another link discussing the article on reddit, with a reference to someone who committed suicide because they couldn't get into a match for residency after trying twice, died before he went for a third attempt! Link 2: ‘I Have a Ph.D. in Not Having Money’ : GradSchool (reddit.com)

    You hear stories like this one person who failed to match residency and trying to continue in a similar health related field such as Nurse Practitioner | Link: After failing to get into a residency, this new MD is going to nursing school (statnews.com)
    Dustin likes this.
  2. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    As the articles you've linked mention, the schools make it a lot easier to get in, but they don't skimp on the quality of the education. So while the graduation rate for US medical schools is 96%, the graduation rate for Carib schools it's 80% or lower. And then once you graduate, you run into failing to match. It's really tough to square the large amount of loans and relatively low pay in the specialties that you can match in (when you count all the years you're making nothing or a resident's salary.) The math can be tough. and if you don't match then you're really up the creek.
    Johann likes this.
  3. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    And so are all those people who might have become your patients over the next 30-40 years. I suspect the 'no match' failure takes out of the equation, many, many people who would have been very good doctors indeed. Many person / years of well-trained medical services lost here. A second tragedy involved.

    This is well and truly broken - but it would sure hell be worth some effort, trying to fix it...
    Dustin likes this.
  4. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Well-Known Member

    A couple of states were in the news for starting PA license conversion processes for medical school graduates who don’t find a match. Awhile back there was a couple hot stories on this that we’re arguing that the Federal placement allotment was being kept artificially low by medical lobbyists. Not sure if that’s true, but they certainly were able to show that the number of placement openings were not keeping up with growth in demand by both graduates and the field. Remember reading about some dismal statistics on how hard it was to get a placement on the second try, if one didn’t land a placement on their first go around.
  5. datby98

    datby98 Active Member

    I thought the news are about those Caribbean medical schools, such as Blue Marble University.

    Just being curious, I searched in Google Scholar and surprisingly found the following. Hope someone could give an evaluation of those doctor-level articles or dissertations.

    Sadek Farouk Sadek Queiri, biologist earned his biological science degree from Suffolk University in Boston, Massachusetts and took certificate courses in biotechnology and regenerative biology at Harvard university extension in Cambridge, Massachusetts, as well as holds a PhD degree in the field of stem cell biology from Blue Marble University. He is a general biologist and pursued his research study in adult stem cell based therapeutical application through Blue Marble University where he earned his PhD in stem cell biology.

    Doaa El-Shereef is an Egyptian Independent Scholar who received a Bachelor of Art (Hebrew Language and Literature) from Ain Shams
    University, Cairo, Egypt and recently received a Ph.D. degree in Philosophy in Biblical Archaeology from Blue Marble University, Commonwealth of Dominica. Dr. Doaa El-Shereef is a member in The National Coalition of Independent Scholars (NCIS), in The World History Association (WHA), in The American Historical Association (AHA) and is a member in International Scientific Committee of Humanities and Social Sciences of World Academy of Science, Engineering and Technology.

    Gwen Aviles earned a Bachelor of Science degree from John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Government and Public Administration which led to a Paralegal position. She have worked with general and special education students for 15+ years from Ages 2 through 23. She is currently an early intervention and school age provider providing supports in all domains of learning particularly, academic, social and emotional growth. She earned DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY In Special Education approved by the Faculty of Blue Marble University July 2016.

    Kathryn Vannauker, holding degrees of B Psych (Hons) and MA, would like to acknowledge the support and guidance of her academic advisor, Professor Doctor Piotr Beck of Blue Marble University in her paper Improving Satisfaction in Intimate Relationships.

    Tong Shen, M.D., is a graduate of the Blue Marble University School of Medicine and St. John’s University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. She is an oncology medical lead and clinical development professional across clinical trial Phase I to IV for multi-indication oncology programs leading to successful multinational registrations and launching readiness at pharmaceutical/biotech
    industries. She is also a key contributor and author of 15 publications in oncology journals and one patent in biometric device. Her career contributions span nearly 15 years.

    Interesting world!
  6. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Thanks for bringing this one up. You're an interesting person, who's good at finding interesting things and topics. Your post has played hell with my blood pressure, but it's good to have this kind of info known - so thanks, Datby! :) No, I don't think Blue Marble is the type of school we were talking about. We were talking about Caribbean medical schools with appropriate accreditation, that had in-person student facilities and were generally able to produce graduates who met the educational requirements to be licensed as medical doctors -specifically in the US.

    Blue Marble states that its MD program is not generally for those who wish to become licensed physicians. (Exception - already-licensed osteopaths.) Its MD program, it says, is entirely online. Blue Marble further clearly states that its grads cannot use the title MD or represent themselves as doctors in a clinical setting. But Datby - you knew that, right? :)

    I believe the certificate of equivalency from that California outfit says Blue Marble's medical degrees are equivalent to a three-year unaccredited US degree. I wonder how far such an actual degree (if available, which it's likely not) would take one, in the US medical community? Hmmm...

    Yes - it certainly is an interesting world and I thank you for the information - now I have to take a couple more pills. ;)
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  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Dang that timer -

    What I should have added - awarding any medical degree without having the proper specific accreditations would be an offense for a US-based school. But Blue Marble didn't do that. What they did was done in / from Dominica. Nothing to prevent that.

    I think this is one for the lawyers to interpret -- from duly accredited law schools only, of course.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
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  8. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Medical school math seems to be going the way of dental school math. This is not good. Law school math, of course, reached and surpassed absurdity twenty years ago.
  9. Dustin

    Dustin Well-Known Member

    I'd never heard of them but there are DI posts going back to 2015. I'm struggling to understand the utility of this degree. Is it a mill? It's not really clear if they're offering real education or not.
  10. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Do you want me to get sued again in my old age, Dustin? :)You know what ...uh, "they" say. (I wouldn't dare, of course...) "If you have to ask...."
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  11. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Blue Marble offered a non-practice MD for years then switched to the Doctor of Science in Medical Arts degree. Their sites (there is more than one) are somewhat confusing as to whether or not they've stayed with one or the other, but the owner is a lawyer and I imagine the changes may have been influenced by legal wranglings.

    Here are some interesting things:

    At this site they show a California University FCE evaluation certificate for Blue Marble. It says that CUFCE evaluated Blue Marble's curricula as equivalent to a regionally accredited institution's:


    But as we've discussed in the past, using CUFCE is scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel of the absolute most bottom of the barrel barrels that exist in the foreign credential evaluation world. This would be a place you'd go after getting rejected by every NACES evaluator in the United States, and then rejected by every AICE evaluator in the United States, and even after all of that you'd still think thrice before going to CUFCE.

    Then there is this from the same page:

    In the entire history of US accreditation, only one wholly online college has been accredited (Jones University), and the howls and complaints that came down from the towers of academia have made it pretty clear that no further accreditations for purely online colleges will ever occur again.

    Huh? I don't know about that one, Chief.

    Here is what I believe Johann was referring to earlier:

    On review of our MD degree program by a foreign education credentials evaluator on behalf of one of our graduates, it was found: “This is a three-year program of graduate study in Medicine. It is equivalent to a U.S. degree, Doctor of Medicine, from an institution that does not have regional accreditation…This is an evaluation for equivalency solely; only qualified authorities can determine licensure for medical graduates”.

    So basically, like a WES evaluation that would say "U.S. non-accredited".

    Another separate credential evaluation service issued its Final Report: “After careful research and analysis the certified credential evaluators have determined that [the student] has satisfied the requirements to attain the equivalent of a Doctor of Medicine Degree from an accredited institution of higher education in the United States”.



    I have no issue with unaccredited medical schools, they exist all over the world and a number of them have turned out fine health professionals which some of us have surely encountered at least once. Like the LinkedIn profiles posted by datby, you'll find unaccredited medical schools sprinkled over the profiles of quite a few well-accomplished health professionals. I have no issue with health degrees meant for non-practice, I'm in fact very much in favor of them as I think health education is something that should be more easily accessible for all, but my concern is with this school's ability to provide it.

    A look over the curriculum shows a number of missing courses that an MD degree would need. I've read one argument asserting that because they require you to already have taken the basic sciences as a condition of acceptance, and because there are no clinical rotations since it's a non-practice degree, this reduces the number of necessary courses (eliminating the first two years of a traditional MD program). Fair enough. But they operate in such a weird way, I just don't have much confidence in them regardless of that, and the way their sites look only adds to that lack of confidence.
    Dustin likes this.
  12. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Yes, that was it. Exactly.
    Claro que sí. Y yo también. :D
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  13. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Two words: Flexner report.
    Johann likes this.
  14. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    I hear you. It was designed to keep Medical Schools from getting too many applicants. OK -maybe Edition II is needed... but not like the old one. Back then, the report barred the door (for the second time) to women applicants. I wouldn't like that any more than women would. (My family doc and two specialists are all female - as are both surgeons who operated on me in recent years. That makes five terrific women doctors. And I prefer things that way - I think I receive better care and that they are why I'm still alive - and now, once again pretty healthy. DARN healthy, I'd say, for a guy who's 79!)

    Also, one of the Flexner report results was the closing of those medical schools which were for African-Americans. NOT the way to go!
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
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  15. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    * Al abogado: Está arreglado, entonces. Flexner redux, mutatis mutandis. ¿Verdad, Sr. Nosborne? :)

    * To lawyer: It's settled then. Flexner revived, with the necessary changes made. Right, Mr. Nosborne?
  16. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    A primary effect of the Flexner Report was to close substandard, often really substandard, medical schools. That's what I meant. Poorly trained physicians are a threat to the lives and health of the people.
    Johann likes this.
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Sorry. I misunderstood. My hackles were raised by the accompanying issues, e.g. women and African-Americans. And of course, you're right -- as always. As long as the focus is on bad schools and not gender, race etc. of applicants - a purge is OK with me.
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Not always...I've been married three times...:oops:
    Johann likes this.
  19. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    If at first you don't succeed, tie, tie again?
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