Value/Utility of UA Degree - Louisiana Baptist University

My apologies, Steve.

Brian

 

Do you see any bias here? An educated person is suppose to be objective in reason and thought.

 

When you address someone you should at least make sure that you know how to spell their name correctly.

 

You can't imagine wanting a degree without a financial ROI but you can imagine a degree for personal spiritual reasons. I found your wording strange but I suggest there is a wider spectrum than that. People do enter into studies intending to become scholars in more fields than religious ones. Among my undergrad classes was Anthropology. I loved the courses but was already making more money as a full time programmer going to night school than any of the Anthropology post-docs. Clearly those folks weren't in it for the money.

I see some non-financial advantage to a degree from a religious college that is UA or NA from a perspective outside of its specific denomination - Being in a denomination without any such infrastructure I could go to a bible college, earn a UA/NA degree, and apply it to my own denomination. Because of the indirect nature of the process I've only considered an MDiv as something I'd do after retiring from my secular career. Were I to covet RA status I might use the curriculum of a bible college and use it as my template at the Cal State Domingus Hills Masters of Liberal Arts program.

 

Actually, I disagree with this. Part of becoming educated is forming opinions. These may or may not be in agreement with others. It's good if people can back up their opinions with evidence but some matters do not allow for good evidence, only argument. Also, many people will say that the general concept of "objectivity" is a myth and that true objectivity is impossible simply by virtue of being human. You can point to numbers (statistics) if you like but even then there could be a disagreement over which stats have the most value in a given situation.

 

Just to be clear, I said I can't imagine paying a ton of cash for a degree without a financial ROI. There are numerous reasons why one might want a degree without a ROI, but to pay a ton of cash for it seems silly if there are other options available.

 

Very interesting as I feel that those who believe the utility of their degree due to accreditation makes them some sort of; how do you say: Impervious? I am awestruck at idea that a person attempts to do good is ridiculed because the degree doesn't make the "gold standard". LBU is an affiliate of the ABHE as well as the a few other schools. I do understand that affiliation doesn't equal rigor, quality, or whatever but there most be something there for potential students academically to achieve. As one poster said you get what you pay for regardless. Also you get out of it what you put in it.

 

This is true in a sense. You can study hard, learn a lot and in a sense "get a lot out of it" but you can do that without enrolling in any school at all. It's always been true and even more so now with the existence of MOOCs and organizations like Coursera, you can study almost anything, virtually for free and "get a lot out of it." But typically people enroll in schools to earn a credential. The credential is a symbol of learning and accreditation validates a minimal level of learning and competency. This is why many employers won't even talk to you if you don't have an accredted degree. So, in general, an unaccredited degree is simply less useful, and in some cases totally useless.

 

ABHE "affiliation" is absolutely meaningless in terms of academic substance, the affiliation is merely a networking option for small unaccredited schools to obtain resources. Although I can't verify this, I would think the reason ABHE even allows affiliation status for these schools, some of which are blatant degree mills, is to hopefully cause them to move to the place they could obtain ABHE status.

LBU, in my opinion, is a sincere effort at offering ministerial training. The administrative personnel are some of the most caring you will find. Most of the faculty are also in some form of ministry. The problem with LBU, other than not being legitimately accredited is that most all the administration/faculty/staff hold degrees from unaccredited schools. As such they do not know the rigor, substance or depth of the studies at a regionally accredited school. So, while their intentions are good, they should be offering diplomas or certificates, not academic degrees.

 

I think, in 99% of the cases, it is perfectly fine to think of the education world in terms of "accredited" versus "unaccredited."

The 1% of the time that we might consider shifting our focus is on religious education (wait) when the institution has denominational affiliations.

If I open Neuhaus Bible Institute, an unaccredited school in Louisiana, that offers a largely fundamentalist Christian education then it's very difficult to tell whether I'm a legitimate institution (though unaccredited) or a diploma mill. We can speculate. We can say that it's better to be "safe" rather than sorry and go with an accredited school.

But if the Neuhaus Bible Institute is affiliated with the United Methodist Church and our graduates are eligible for ordination in the UMC following graduation we need to look at this fictional institution a bit differently for two reasons: 1) there is a built-in utility (i.e. becoming UMC clergy) 2) the affiliation implies a certain level of validation.

Now, it's true, the UMC (or any denomination) may not have the same standards as an accrediting body. That's not their shtick. But if the Catholic Church is saying that an M.Div. from Neuhaus Bible Institute will qualify a young man for ordination in the same way as an M.Div. from the accredited Catholic seminary down the street, that's something.

I have zero experience with Louisiana Baptist University. But whenever the name comes up, it reminds me of St. Sophia Seminary, the official (and unaccredited) seminary of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA. Now, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - USA isn't a particularly large denomination (compared to say, the Greek Orthodox Church). But it has a few hundred congregations in the country and those congregations are housed in actual church buildings and employ full-time clergy. Years ago, St. Sophia offered a Licentiate in Sacred Theology (STL) to its graduates. Now it offers a Masters of Divinity. It is state approved (NJ) but has no accreditation. Nor does it appear to be seeking any form of accreditation.

If you want to become a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church then this is the clearest path. You could opt for an accredited M.Div. at St. Tikhon's Seminary or St. Vladimir's, but those are both operated by the Orthodox Church of America. While the various Orthodox Churches have pretty close relations with one another they have different hierarchies. Also, maybe you live in New Jersey, intend to serve a parish in New Jersey and don't want to move to rural Pennsylvania to pay for St. Tikhon's (which is also significantly more expensive).

I will note, however, that St. Sophia's has another feather in it's cap. While it operates under state approval only it is located in New Jersey. New Jersey has been nearly as active as Oregon in trying to bring to light the problems associated with diploma mills. Their approval process doesn't allow St. Sophia's to operate with impunity. At the very minimum, New Jersey simply doesn't have the crappy reputation that Louisiana has in terms of providing a haven to diploma mills.

So LBU is a weird case. What's the utility? Well, if you intend to work with any of the 4,500 congregations affiliated with Baptist Bible Fellowship International then this degree may very well be useful. But that's pretty much it. An M.Div. from St. Sophia's is only going to get you a job somewhere in the Orthodox Christian world. Most obviously in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, though it appears a few other priests from other jurisdictions attended there as well.

So here's a question, would the degree from St. Tikhon's get you that much more? You could argue that it might help you get a teaching position in a non-Orthodox school. But if that's not your goal then who cares?

The biggest issue I have with schools like LBU is when they begin offering non-religious studies (like their attempt at offering a business degree). But accreditation really isn't everything with some degrees. Go and get a Masters from Moody and show up at the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and slap it on the Archbishop's desk and say "OK! I'm ready to be an Orthodox priest now! I have an accredited Master of Divinity. Sure, it's from a protestant school but it's accredited so it's intrinsically better than a degree from your loser diploma mill seminary." I would recommend not having your ordination cards printed in advance of this meeting.

 

Hey Pugbelly.

Hope you are doing well. There are certain circumstances where a UA degree can make a difference. It is only a matter of what niche market will be utilized. For example: People College of Law:

About PCL - Peoples College of Law

This school is a UA law school located in LA. It holds street cred amongst unionists/activists. If you are union man/women, this school is held in high esteem. The school, while small, has churned out some top name/grads in the high ranks of unions and LA politicians .

I will use myself as an example. In the next couple of years, I will transition from an 8-5 job and start doing contract work from my home or out in the field. In other words, I will have time to pursue the things I have been putting off. At that point, I will seek a degree from The Peoples College of Law. I may or may not test for the bar exam, but at the least, I will earn a JD from them. Why? it will look good on my resume in MY particular case. I run in union/political circles, and this school is well known. So for me, it will work.

So, in some circumstances a UA can fit a specific need.

See ya,

Abner :smile:

 

If you think about it, it's a very, very weird system.

Oh, the state of Louisiana (where your school is located) says your school can operate? Not good enough. Nope, in order to be considered legitimate your school needs to be accredited by this private body. We can't possibly rely on the government to determine if a school is good enough.

I'm not suggesting that accreditation is bad or even inadequate. But when you look at it objectively and compare it to the way schools around the world derive their authority to operate it seems needlessly convoluted.

We also let emotions run rampant. I was reading a news article the other day about Patten University and a person in the comment section stated: "For-profit schools are all scams no matter what sort of 'accreditation' they claim."

So, there are people who undoubtedly feel that LBU is a "legitimate" school while the University of Phoenix is a diploma mill. Granted, that's just a knee-jerk reaction that isn't based upon any real information. But those knee-jerk reactions can matter when it comes to a degree being "accepted" by the outside world.

So here a guy earned a bachelors degree and then went to an ABA accredited law school and became a lawyer. Good for him. It's important to remember that accreditation guides matters like credit transfer or acceptance into professional programs but it isn't the only factor. Clearly, Regent is OK with LBU. That's a significant feather in their cap when considering "utility."

Look, if my son grows up and says "Dad, I want to go to LBU" I'm going to be thoroughly confused for a variety of reasons. And we can endlessly debate LBU. I say it seems more like St. Sophia's. Others seem to just write it off as if it belongs in the same camp as Almeda. But I would also have concerns if my son wanted to attend a school accredited by TRACS, ABHE or the association of advanced rabbinical and talmudic schools. While those accredited schools may have limited utility they don't have zero utility. And we could probably find an example (or a dozen) of people who graduated from schools accredited by one of those entities who went on to successful professional studies. Likewise, we can find people who graduated from a number of these unaccredited religious schools and do the same (remember when we just did this with Trinity grads?).

I have yet to find an example of an Almeda grad who used his/her degree to get into law school. Yet, here are the popular religious school grads, from equally unaccredited schools, doing just that. I think the reason is two-fold:

1. I think a good portion of Almeda grads are trying to deceive employers. I think they know that their degree is bogus and they don't care. Conversely, I think people who go to LBU, Trinity, Heartland Baptist, St. Sophia's or really any religious school WITH a denominational affiliation, are going out of a more honest desire to pursue a religious education (and don't care about Title IV to pursue that goal).

2. If you have a degree from LBU it is likely to be looked upon with friendlier eyes by schools like Regent or Liberty. That may not guarantee you'll get a seat in their respective law schools but they are probably less likely to just write it off without giving it due consideration.

 

Many religious colleges are not accredited because they do not want the government to give them guidance about what to teach. They don't want the government to determine what to teach. Moreover, they know that they will teach some things that go against governmental approval.

Just because a college is not accredited does not mean that the curriculum is not rigorous. The curriculum may be rigorous and demanding. The instructors may give tough assignments and tough exams.

 

This assertion is merely subjective conjecture. Please earn a degree from LBU then share with us the level of utility you experience.

 

No one has ever been able to show me a single instance where a school was denied accreditation because of the content of a course(s). Similarly, no one has ever been able to show me a single instance where an accrediting agency has attempted to alter the content of a course(s). Consequently I think this is a specious argument. Beyond that, I would like to challenge you to tell me what a school of this sort might teach that would "go against government approval."

 

It might be a little subjective, but the statement does in fact have some basis. LBU degrees are accepted by Liberty on a regular basis. They are also accepted by Luther Rice (NA through TRACS and ABHE). No one is arguing that a LBU degree has comparable utility to one that is RA, or even NA, but schools like Regent and Liberty may in fact look more favorably on them than many other schools might. Incidentally, as an aside, the acceptance of LBU degrees isn't guaranteed even among NA, evangelical universities. For example, Bakke Graduate University (TRACS) does not accept transfer credit from LBU.

The bottom line is a degree from LBU will have very limited utility, but may be a great value and may serve a a need for some people.

As another aside, I've reviewed some of the syllabi from LBU's PhD in Leadership, the Tennessee Temple (now Piedmont) PhD in Leadership, Johnson's PhD in Leadership Studies, and Bakke's Doctor of Transformational Leadership. My opinion on rigor? Tennessee Temple/Piedmont, Johnson and Bakke are comparable to one another, LBU is a step below. The LBU program looks like a bit more than a master's degree, and it does require the student to publish a book, but it's less than other doctorates. It appears to require legitimate work, but is not at the same level as the other 3. Is it still a worthwhile program? Probably, but that depends on what the student expects to get out of it.

 

I'm reminded of an episode of Barney Miller where Detective Doetrich says something that contradicts a psychologist. The psychologist condescendingly asks "Do you have a PhD in Psychology?" Dietrich, without missing a beat replies "Yes." The guy looks ruffled and angrily asks "Got in on ya?"

We just reviewed a person who used his LBU degree to get into the law school of Regent University. So, while I was expressing an opinion (which can rightfully defined as "subjective conjecture") I was basing it upon the confirmed reality that, at least one person used his unaccredited degree to attend law school (and later graduate and be admitted to the bar). So Regent University must have taken a sympathetic view toward his LBU degree for admission purposes (and later, in admitting him as faculty for their law school).

While your experiment sounds tempting, I think it would be more interesting to take two individuals with no paid work history and give one a bachelors degree from the University of Phoenix and another a degree from LBU. I'd be curious to see how that played out. There are certainly people who think of UoP as a diploma mill despite its accreditation. Would it fair better? I don't know.

But the main reason I'm not going to earn an LBU degree is because I don't desire to become a minister in any of the thousands of congregations affiliated with BBFI. Neither do I intend to become a Reform Rabbi, so an MHL from Hebrew Union College wouldn't really have much utility for me, despite its accreditation. And if I didn't intend to work as a chiropractor then earning a DC from Palmer would offer me nothing in the way of utility, either.

 

Apparently I missed this info. Could you post the details?

 

Of course, he's on this page.