Value/Utility of UA Degree - Louisiana Baptist University

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Pugbelly2, Dec 29, 2014.

Loading...
  1. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    There has been much discussion over the years regarding the value/utility of an unaccredited degree. Certain institutions seem to come up more than others. Louisiana Baptist University has been one such school. It has its supporters and haters to say the least. In any event, in looking at various graduate programs in law I came across the following adjunct faculty page for the Regent University School of Law: Regent Law - Adjunct Faculty

    You'll notice that Joshua Didlake completed his undergrad studies at LBU (in theology no less), then gained entry into the JD program at Regent, passed the bar, and now appears to be working as an attorney as well as an adjunct professor. So at least in this case, the UA LBU degree certainly appears to have had significant value. I understand this is probably the exception to the rule, but I found it worthy of posting nonetheless.
     
  2. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Degrees in theology or in religion seem to be the only exception to the RA rule for a couple of different reasons. First, many of the religious colleges and universities have their own programmatic accreditation that is unique to their theology or to their denomination. Second, theology degrees are esoteric because they are based on certain biblical or Christian philosophies and teachings, which cannot [always] be governed by regional accreditators or by the government. I would prefer to get an RA theology degree, but understandably, non-RA theology degrees may have great utility for spreading the gospel and for certain Christian denominations.
     
  3. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Yes. Religious schools often get legitimacy from the sponsoring ecclesial body. For example, Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA runs small St. Sophia Seminary that is unaccredited. But it is approved by the Synod of UOC-USA, a canonical body, so it is legitimate. Same goes for the school run by a sister Church, American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (Christ the Savior, iirc) and Antiochian OC's distance learning St. Stephen's Course. Bigger sister seminaries (OCA's St. Vladimir and St Tikhon, ROCOR's Holy Trinity or the Greek Archdiocese's Holy Trinity) are accredited.
     
  4. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    I understand and agree with the previous posts. I just like to stir the pot a little, especially with a hotly debated school like LBU. :wink1:
     
  5. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Under current ABA accreditation standards (which apply to Regent), JD applicants are normally expected to hold bachelor's degrees with recognized accreditation, or the foreign equivalent. However, the ABA does allow rare exceptions:

    So the individual apparently had some qualifications that "clearly demonstrated an aptitude for the study of law". It's a bit hard to see how an unaccredited theology degree would clearly demonstrate legal aptitude to the satisfaction of the ABA (who will look at Regent's files as part of their accreditation review). It seems more likely that his admission reflects some other factor, like a strong LSAT score and/or previous law-related work experience.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2014
  6. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    I agree. It's just nice, at least in my opinion, to see someone with a UA degree use it to go on to other things, whether it be in academia, business, or both. I've also liked LBU for quite a while, so it's particularly pleasant to see this kind of thing every now and again. It should serve as a reminder that there are times when UA and NA degrees are still a good option. Admittedly, these degrees will never have the same utility as RA, but it doesn't mean they don't serve a niche.
     
  7. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    The initial example reminds me of the person who says, "Bill Gates never graduated college and look how successful he has been." When you begin to unpack that idea it's really quite silly for at least a couple of reasons. There are probably lots of people who have taught at colleges without the benefit of a degree. I personally know someone who taught at Wentworth without a degree of any kind but he knew more about metalurgy and welding than most engineers. The man in the original example may have gotten that job despite his degree, not because of it. You'd need to know a lot more about the situation to come to any conclusion. As for me, there's only one unaccredited degree I'd care to have. It's from the Western Institute of Social Research.

    Western Institute for Social Research
     
  8. RAM PhD

    RAM PhD Member

    There are always exceptions to any rule, but that's like saying "Neal Armstrong walked on the moon so I think I can too." Truth is, 99.99% of the population has never walked on the moon and never will? Every so often we hear of someone who supposedly "beat the system" with a UA degree and some want to highlight this as a UA degree success story. Again, truth is, for the vast majority in the vast majority of situations the UA degree has little to no utility and in more than a few cases ends up being a time bomb.
     
  9. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    I am RA or the highway for all secular degrees. For a theology degree, I would always go for an RA degree, with one exception: if my church wanted to sponsor me through one of their non-RA theology degree programs, then I would probably do it, but that's the only exception. Most denominations have extremely esoteric views.
     
  10. RAM PhD

    RAM PhD Member

    None of which are beyond the scope of regional accreditation. If a church, denomination, etc., wishes to offer an "in-house" type of training program (certificate, diploma, etc.), no problem; however, if they are going to award academic degrees (bachelor, master, doctorate), it becomes problematic.
     
  11. dfreybur

    dfreybur New Member

    If the WORK you do at an UA place allows you to CLEP out until the CLEP courses run out then allows you to challenge the rest of the courses at a RA place to get your degree, it had utility. The degree itself did not but the work leading to it did. This would result in double costs for single benefit but any fellow Excelsior/Regents alumnus has already done that and so I figure a lot of remote studies folks have double paid for some of their studies. It's the work not the degree that has utility.

    I've worked with folks who got their Masters at an NA or UA place and gotten promoted into management based on that completing a mandatory requirement. At any future company the degree gets ignored but the real world management experience counts. This parallels the starting advantage of a degree from a top 10 place versus generic state. The better college is a starting advantage but later in the career either one is just a box checked by HR and the career work counts the most. In this parallel the worse college checks a box at one company then the career work counts the most.

    Would I get a UA or NA degree if my company had a reimbursement program with them and/or it meant a slam-dunk promotion into management that is already in the bag except that one box checked off? You betcha. Then I'd take my time about pondering RA credits for the work.

    I'm considering a not dissimilar issue now for a "No Pay MBA" taking free/cheap courses matching the curriculum of a real MBA. I'm moving in a couple of months and after that will test the waters with a first course to see how I react. Then I'll take my time about converting the work into credits. If there were CLEP equivalents for MBA work I'll take them and pay to put my creidts into the Excelsior graduate credit bank or similar.

    Theology degree? An MDiv would be nice going into retirement. Not all courses and not all degrees are ABOUT utility. No one gets a PhD for the long term career benefits; they do it for the love of advancing their field. No one with a good career good gets an MDiv for the long term career benfits; they do it for the love of advancing their faith. (Of course someone is going to post about one individual exception to these trends - Show me the Census Bureau data that I'm wrong about the economics).

    The guy in the example may well have written extensively on religious law and how it interacts with secular law. As long as he consistently made it clear he thinks they are separate that work could have qualified him for the ABA school.
     
  12. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    The views of Kizmet and RamPhD are obviously legitimate. It wasn't my intention to infer that the utility of a UA degree was comparable to RA or NA. UA is not, nor will it ever be equal to RA or NA. However, UA degrees are not necessarily the kiss of death that many on this board make them out to be. Obviously one must still perform some due diligence on the institution and understand the limitations before making a decision. As I stated previously, UA schools can still serve a niche.

    In the case of the lawyer referenced in the original post, he may have gotten into law school, started his own business and become a professor despite the degree from LBU, but the fact remains that he still publicly claims it and it has not hurt him. It served a purpose for him, whatever that purpose is/was, and he still claims it as a credential.

    The problem(s) with UA is that many are unaware of the limitations and, quite frankly, many UA schools are bogus. That doesn't mean that all UA schools are bad, that everyone should be discouraged from attending them, or they will ruin a career. For example, you can see in my signature line that I am a RA guy. In addition to the degrees I have already earned I am preparing to complete a MA in Counseling at Baptist Bible College and Seminary (also RA). Following graduation, I will be doing doctorate work in Biblical Counseling at either Louisiana Baptist University or Columbia Evangelical Seminary. Both are UA and I am keenly aware of the limitations, but both perfectly fit my needs. They serve a niche.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    My sister is a Methodist minister, and her MDiv has actually opened up many professional doors. Most MDiv holders have a lot of experience with leadership, organizational development, public speaking and other communications skills, as well as a lot of psychology (at least in her case). They're demonstrably useful, and I'd hire them in a heartbeat.

    As for PhD students, just reading posts on this forum will show you that many of us are actually motivated by perceived professional benefits. I'll skip the Census data search, though, because I'd easily believe that the statistics show that many PhD students don't estimate those benefits very realistically.
     
  14. RAM PhD

    RAM PhD Member

    The descriptive above speaks volumes when it comes to academic degrees, regardless of the discipline one chooses. A "Real MBA" as opposed to what? Or in more general terms, a "Real Degree" as opposed to what?
     
  15. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    The following religious school is not RA, but it offers degrees:

    Augustine Institute | Catholic Theology School | Masters | Distance Education | New Evangelization Programs

    Exactly how is it problematic?
     
  16. potpourri

    potpourri New Member

    As far as acceptance of the unaccredited degree it's all in the eyes of the beholder. In example, I contacted Rick Walston of Columbia Evangelical Seminary, which to some on here they respect him and the school even though it is in fact unaccredited.

    When I asked Dr. Walston about Louisiana Baptist University, he stated that he wouldn't give them any consideration and that there not worth anything. So to him Louisiana Baptist University isn't worth a thing. Is he right? Some on here would agree with him while others would hold a different view.

    I contacted a few accredited colleges/universities and the ones that said that they would accept credits from Louisiana Baptist University are Liberty University, Regent University, and Amridge University. There was no hesitation as to who would accept what credits. Now who should have more clout here Dr. Walston or the accredited schools mentioned that would accept the credits from Louisiana Baptist University?

    I'm not trying to single out Dr. Walston and I had a good conversation with him, but one could argue does Columbia Evangelical Seminary have more respect than Louisiana Baptist University? In the eyes of world academia both are unaccredited period. But it matters who you ask and inquire with.

    Again it's all in the eyes of the beholder. In my estimation my opinion is that Regent University more than likely accepted the unaccredited Louisiana Baptist University Bachelor's degree, but more than likely put this person on academic probation, or else they demonstrated that they could handle the rigor of the coursework. They may have also had to make up any deficiencies that Regent University saw in the candidates record. We don't know but unlike public universities religious ones can be exempt from the usual requirements so long as they can demonstrate efficiency and this is the difference between a public and religious/private educational institution.
     
  17. potpourri

    potpourri New Member

    An interesting thought. This post was about a person who was able to use an undergraduate degree that was an unaccredited and move toward accredited graduate degrees.

    Has anyone ever come across the opposite where someone had accredited let's say undergraduate and Master's, but got an unaccredited Doctorate and it was accepted by an accredited institution that is regionally accredited? I know that there have been instances where schools have made mistakes or not used dull diligence, but I'm strictly asking about where they had an unaccredited Doctorate and it was able to be used at a regionally accredited school such as the example given by the original poster but using it at the Doctorate level with regionally accredited degrees but the Doctorate being unaccredited.
     
  18. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    Dr. James White (Columbia Evangelical Seminary graduate).
     
  19. RAM PhD

    RAM PhD Member

    AI is an associate member of ATS and a candidate for full ATS accreditation, which will give the school national accreditation.

    But, to answer your question, let us say that AI was unaccredited. Degrees from such schools are problematic for a number of reasons:

    1) The utility is going to be extremely limited and in some cases non-existent;

    2) The recipient ends up having to explain/defend such a school the rest of his/her life;

    3) Using such a degree in any professional capacity gives the impression that the degree (especially at the doctoral level) was earned via accepted academic standards. This is especially true for degrees in religion/ministry/biblical studies/theology because in no other field is such a diversity of academic options
    available. Because of church/state issues in the USA, religious schools may be exempted in many states and offer degrees with absolutely no oversight in terms of quality of education, academic rigor, etc.;

    4) In some cases, such degrees have become time bombs that went off years later, ruining the reputation and integrity of the person using the degree.

    5) In many instances such schools offer substandard academic programs.

    All that said, the 2% of cases where a UA degree may work in someone's favor to "beat the system" should in no way be perceived as a green light to pursue this academic route.
     
  20. Pugbelly2

    Pugbelly2 Member

    That's offensive. I will never understand why people just can't accept that these schools, no matter how few, may be useful to serve a niche. Why must it be viewed as an attempt to "beat the system?" That's really quite arrogant. While I agree that your statements may be true for many, they are not for true for all, so let's show a little respect and humility. I believe a more humble position might be, "UA degrees have limited utility and can frequently be problematic for the degree holder, so a seeker of a UA degree should fully understand the risks and limitations before making a decision to ensure that the degree, as well as the awarding institution, meets his/her needs."
     

Share This Page