Value/Utility of UA Degree - Louisiana Baptist University

I could not disagree with you more. The notion of that sentiment is extremely arrogant. Even if I agreed with you on the UA issue, which I do not, your exclusion of NA and foreign degrees is laughable.

 

If the standard of legitimacy is the quality of a RA education, then any UA, NA or foreign school that requires comparable rigor and substance to the worst RA school in America, is legitimate. The degree may not be accepted by many and that is perfectly fine, but it is still legitimate.

 

There's some interesting discussion about how to calculate the probability of getting hit by a meteorite. For me it turned out to be the best part of this thread.

 

Being, of course, an "RA or the highway" guy (in my case, both RA and the highway), I find this thread mildly amusing and yet highly predictable.

So, would it affect things if I gently remind y'all that LBU was, at one time, "accredited" by the Accrediting Commission International? Yeah, that ACI. For those of you who have access to NIFI, look up LBU and its various affiliates. I've been calling these jokers degree mills (yes, plural) since the last century.

Can someone be successful with an LBU degree? Of course. But that doesn't make them any less a mill.

I have spoken. Get over it. And happy new year, everyone.

 

No, I didn't mean to exclude NA or foreign RA equivalent degrees (I hold two of the latter). I'm speaking of UA degrees. It's OK to laugh, just don't be the one to whom the laughter is directed.

 

me again,

The universities of most major (if not all) denominations are RA. I think the problem you may face is with churces that are not attached to major denomination; that is, self-governed churches.
Regards

Brian

 

Steve Levicoff,

Many universities have embryonic stages of development; however, you are off-base if you are referring to LBU as a degree mill.

Brian

 

My, my, my . . .

Brian, bubaleh, I’ll give you benefit of doubt and assume that you’re simply naïve. And that your research skills are probably not the best.

Therefore, I’ll make an exception to one of my usual rules (that people do their own homework), and provide what I wrote about them in 1994, the last time I updated NIFI (for that, if you’re not familiar with it, you have to do your own homework).

Needless to say (usual legal disclaimer here), what appears below was current at the time of publication and may not be current now. But, since I’m out of this biz, I have neither the need nor interest in updating my research from that time.

But one thing I will do is maintain the same position I had then – it’s a mill. As for your notion that they're in the "embryonic stages of development," note that they've been around since 1961. I'd hardly call that fetal, let alone embryonic.

Best wshes.

 

Steve Lyvicoth,

You have not stated anything that validates your assertion that Liberty University is a mill. How can it be a mill and yet be RA? In addition, I think it depends on what's your definition of a mill. Certainly, your definition seems to differ to the average person's.

Brian

 

Brian, shayna punum, your misspelling of my last name is so off that it suggests you are a shill from another forum which shall go unnamed here (but which our regulars would recognize in a nanosecond). Nonetheless (especially with only 15 posts here), you have not stated anything that would validate the notion that you have any intelligence or critical thinking skills.

In fact, I said nothing about Liberty University being a degree mill. In fact, I have always held Liberty University in high regard.

I think it’s more than clear that I said that “LBU” (to which you referred in your prior post) is a degree mill. LBU, of course, is Louisiana Baptist University, and I have called them a mill for years.

I believe that the only mention of Liberty in this thread is in the context of their accepting (on a selective basis, I would think), some students who have studied through or gradated from LBU. That, in itself, is consistent with schools in the evangelical community, and neither validates Louisiana Baptist nor brings disrepute upon Liberty. Regionally accredited evangelical schools have always made exceptions when it comes to unaccredited schools, and that process is generally on an individual basis.

So, to make sure we’re all clear . . . Liberty University – an outstanding school for which I have a lot of affection. Louisiana Baptist - a mill.

 

No, why would it? The ACI period only lasted for a very short time and, more importantly, there have been other legitimate institutions that once claimed accreditation from substandard organizations. If I am not mistaken, Columbia Southern once claimed such accreditation.

I am not prepared to forever hold against an organization, or an individual for that matter, something that happened in the past. Instead, I look at what is happening today. I certainly don't want to forever be judged on my actions from the past. Today, LBU does not claim accreditation. Today, LBU openly states its unaccredited status, affiliation with ABHE, membership in ACSI and approval by the BBFI.

Just to be clear, I am not touting LBU as a top tier university. I am merely suggesting that they are not a mill.

 

That's ridiculous. There are many very effective men and women ministering and leading with degrees from Louisiana Baptist University. Hence: it has utility. Those individuals are working in their field with credentials from LBU. Every degree has limited utility. In my circle of Christendome a degree from Yale would make a candidate for ministry "suspect" and my accredited degrees from Liberty University and Tennessee Temple University would exclude me (and have) from other circles.

There are lots of accredited DL programs a person persuing theological education could do but I know of none that offer an $80 monthly payment plan coupled with many solid alumni and staff. Every person needs to weigh out their needs and goals.

 

Of course that alone doesn't necessitate utility but if utility means effective preparation for a career and respect from potential employers then it has utility.

 

There may indeed be many men/women ministering/leading with LBU degrees. But how many of those attained those positions "BECAUSE" of the LBU degrees. This is where utility comes in. And how many churches/organizations outside the BBFI would accept LBU degrees? BBFI's own premier accredited seminary does not accept LBU degrees. Roy Wallace, who is passed now but was on LBU's faculty for years, had unaccredited B, M, D degrees. He was told he could not teach at BBFI's seminary because of his unaccredited degrees. That doesn't sound ridiculous to me.

Do you mind, PP, if I ask where you earned your BS, MAR, MDiv and DMin?

 

None of us knows the answer for sure, but my guess would be most.

Again here, none of us know the answer to this question, but my guess would be many. The larger, centralized denominations probably would not, but many of the independent, evangelical churches probably would. It may also depend on the position within the church.

Please be reminded that no one on this board is arguing against RA being universally accepted or even that NA or UA degrees have as much utility. They don't. We are merely attempting to make the point that a degree from LBU, as well as some other UA institutions, does in fact have some utility, albeit for a niche group, and therefore is a legitimate option for some cases in some circumstances. [/QUOTE]

I am not surprised by this at all. BBFI's premiere university is accredited. LBU is not. Even though LBU is a BBFI approved institution, I believe accredited schools, BBFI approved or otherwise, would have problems with its accrediting agency if they just blanket-accepted all LBU degrees without review. I would guess that like many accredited seminaries, students holding UA degrees would be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Liberty University has the Liberty University Home Bible Institute. It's unaccredited and can't be transferred into one of Liberty's degree programs (it has be be reviewed via portfolio assessment). It doesn't mean that the LBHI is not legitimate or lacks value for some people in some cases. Luther Rice is a Baptist University Seminary that is accredited by TRACS and the ABHE. Tennessee Temple is Baptist and accredited by TRACS. Their degrees wouldn't necessarily be accepted into other Baptist institutions, especially if RA. Your point on this particular issue doesn't hold up. [/QUOTE]

 

Only lasted for a short time? Hey, folks, we’re talking ACI here, the accreditation mill that, in its previous life, was busted by the FBI after they accredited a fake school with The Three Stooges and Arnold Ziffel (the pig from Green Acres) on its faculty. If you have never read the extremely funny history of ACI, you’ll find it in several of John Bear’s works.

LBU, in its various incarnations, has always purported to grant degrees through the doctoral level. I submit that any school that claims to grant doctorates and was dumb enough to be accredited by ACI was, is, and always be a mill.

For me, the issue has never been accredited (legitimately) versus unaccredited. I won’t speak for Cal Southern, having not checked them out thoroughly, but I doubt that I would be impressed with them.

You did, however, mention Tennessee Temple, now accredited by TRACS. For many years they had no accreditation at all, yet I have always thought highly and spoken well of TTU – one of the three best unaccredited Fundamentalist schools in the country. (The others are Pensacola Christian College and Bob Jones University, despite the history of racism at BJU that I have written about extensively elsewhere.)

I would think that none of these three schools would have me as a student, and I doubt that I would be comfortable attending any of them. That does not impact the fact that they’re quality schools. The difference between them and LBU? None of them were ever dumb enough to join up with ACI. Once a school has claimed ACI accreditation at any point, as far as I’m concerned, it is forever in the proverbial lake of fire and brimstone. It’s the unforgivable sin, especially for an institution that purports (or ever did purport) to grant doctorates.

Have some mills cleaned up their act and gone legit? Sure. But I’m not willing to carve an exception for one that ever claimed ACI accreditation.

Finally, keep in mind that affiliation with ABHE is ]o\not]i\ accreditation, any organization can join ASCI, and if LBU meets the standards of the BBF, more power to them. As an author, I endorsed several seminaries that have been unaccredited and existed solely to meet the needs of their denominations. But none of them ever joined ACI or claimed any other type of bogus accreditation. Or founded their own accreditation agency just to accredit themselves, historically a common tactic among religious degree mills.

Bottom line: Anyone who is naïve enough to get a degree from such schools will always have people like me laughing at them.

I have spoken Um, again.

 

Mr. Levicoff,

I have been a member of this forum for many years (initially under another user name) and have always respected your opinions, as well as the opinions of others. I disagree with you on this issue, but still champion your right to express your views. That said, I have never attended LBU or CES, so I can't personally attest to the required rigor or academic substance of the program(s). For now, I am adequately persuaded to view both schools as legitimate, but UA.

You laugh at those who earn degrees from such schools, and that is certainly your right. I can only hope that the graduates of schools like LBU and CES are wise enough not to allow your laughter to bother them or influence their decisions. I am extremely comfortable with who I am as a scholar, a professional and as a Christian. Your laughter, in the event I ever earn a credential from LBU or CES, will not affect me in the least. I sincerely hope others are confident enough in themselves to feel the same.

As an aside, I was unaware of TTU's status as a UA school. To the best of my knowledge they were always ABHE accredited. Are you certain that TTU operated as UA?

 

Regardless of the accreditation of religious schools, the final utility of each degree will be determined at the end of each graduates life when he stands before:
* The Judgement Seat of Christ
--OR--
* The Great White Throne Judgement

The utility of an unaccredited religious degree is moot for those who appear before the Great White Throne Judgement because the holders of those unaccredited degrees are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Conversely, the utility of unaccredited religious degrees for those standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ will be measured by many different spiritual variables, to include but not limited to:
* Was the Christian a loving parent? Did he take care of his family by guiding them to heaven by setting a proper example and by providing for them?
* Did the Christian walk primarily by faith (trusting God) or by fear (doubting God)?
* Etc.

The valuation of unaccredited religious degrees should not be evaluated exclusively with secular criteria. Therein lies the esoteric difference.

 

According to TTU's own history page:

However, the school was apparently operating long before 1984, when it received ABHE accreditation. According to the same page:

The implication is that TTU operated as an unaccredited institution from the 1940s until 1984.

 

Thank you. Much appreciated.