DL Degree Holders with B&M Teaching Jobs

One additional thought - I doubt a distance PhD would have been noted if it was granted from a B&M school (like one of the University of Nebraska programs) so long as the nomenclature was standard. It may not have come up until the actual interview.

But the folks had a laundry list of the regular names we see here that they were screening for although not necessarily against. If any of those university names popped up, they were sure to scrutinize. Ultimately, I think that extra scrutiny would probably kill a candidate given how competitive these things are.

I do think a distance doctorate from a B&M school could 'skate' by.

 

Total agreement here.

R Andy

 

Very good point. It's mostly about the dissertation and really, what's the difference?

 

In the UK, Germany, and many other countries, the Ph.D. is awarded on the basis of the thesis (dissertation). This is the "big book" approach, where the student writes a huge thesis (~100k words). There is not a set curriculum of courses, although the student's advisor may require the student to take classes to shore up some area(s). But the degree is judged on the thesis, which is done (as noted above) largely independently. However....

The "taught" doctorate, seen in the U.S. and increasingly in the UK, Australia and elsewhere, contains a set of courses plus a smaller (~50-60k words) thesis/dissertation. You can see how the prejudice towards DL programs would extend to these "taught" programs because of their large course component. In taught programs yes, the dissertation is the key, but you don't get there without doing the coursework.

The Union Institute, back when it was the Union for Experimenting Colleges and Universities, offered the Ph.D. through its Union Graduate School. According to the description in Roy Fairfield's book, it very much resembled the "big book" approach. But the powers of tradition crept in, and learners were required to identify--through the guidance of their committees--the competencies necessary to earn the degree and create a learning plan for meeting them. Later, that learner-centered approach was destroyed, and now learners have their degrees' competencies identified for them (very much like Fielding always has), but still gives them the flexibility to design their own methods for reaching those competencies. It is very much a "taught" degree, even though the learner has much say-so in how he/she is "taught" (and learns).

So what? So this: the idea of the doctoral learner working largely independently of the school is widespread and should be acceptable. But "taught" programs are still delivered via DL, and that's where the resistance lies. In the U.S., doctoral students are not deemed as independent as those in other countries. Their doctoral experiences are judged by others in part by how much control was exercised upon them. That's too bad.

 

I hope you're right.

 

Rich, I'm a bit confused....do you favor the research or taught doctorate?

 

Either one.

 

Is a DL dissertation-only doctorate earned from a UK university better than a DL doctorate earned from a US university in the eyes of hiring and search committees?

 

That's fascinating, Rich. So an independently earned doctorate is not all that new of an idea. That gives a lot of support to the DL learning model. It's encouraging to me because the NCU PhD is pretty much independent as well; with only a mentor over you to keep you on the right path.

 

I don't think that is hard getting a tenure track because the degree was earned by using DL but because the school name. There are plenty professors that hold tenure track positions with degrees earned by using DL but these degrees come from very well known schools. I don't think that a person holding a DL doctorate from Manchester University, Henley or Queensland University of Technology would have a problem getting a tenure track.
Also,most tenure track positions require research accomplishments in terms of number of publications, quality of journals, etc. Most online PhDs are meant for working individuals with very little time to produce publications so most graduates won't have enough publications to even be considered for tenure tracks.

In few words, if an NCU graduate had a good 10 publications from top journals, I'm positive that this graduate would get tenure track offers in spite of the name of the school.

 

Do you know of anyone from NCU that has obtained a tenure track position? Thanks.

 

I doubt you will find anyone who has managed that feat. NCU has not been offering terminal degrees for long enough to have much of a track record. I'm sure the fact that they offer no residencies makes the online stigma worse. I'm attending NCU and don't expect, or particularly want, a tenure track position at a university.

 

There are several ways to a tenure-track position. There's the traditional, apprentice-based approach where grad students work as indentured servants for universities, teaching classes and supporting faculty research while doing their doctorates. This process helps set them up for competing for teaching jobs as assistant professors, either at their home school or somewhere else. They've kind of networked themselves and have the support (in most cases) of their faculty advisors as they seek entry-level employment.

And that's the rub: entry-level. The tenure-track result of earning a Ph.D. is an entry-level job. While there are exceptions, most mid-career professionals aren't interested in dropping their careers--and their incomes--to indenture themselves in a traditional Ph.D. program that leads to a poor-paying, entry-level job.

What about DL and part-time programs? Well, students in these programs are doing the academics, but they're not part of the feudal/apprenticeship system. In other words, these programs are not designed to lead to entry-level, tenure-track positions. That means they're not much use for the new learner. And those mid-career professionals? Such programs are great for those who think a doctorate will advance their current careers.

So, can you get a tenure-track position with a DL degree? Theoretically, sure. Here are two potential tracks. First, the non-doctorate-holding instructor/professor who goes to get a doctorate to improve his/her chances for tenure--either at the current school or another. That person is already in the system and is looking to advance. The DL doctorate becomes a facilitating factor, not the driving one (which is likely the person's skills as an instructor and researcher). Second, let's return to that mid-career professional. A school might be interested in hiring someone who wants to leave his/her profession for teaching and is already properly "degreed" (even if by DL). Again, the presence of the doctorate isn't the deciding factor, but it facilitates the process. If noted author Rita Mae Brown wanted to accept a faculty position at a university, they wouldn’t hire her on the basis of her Ph.D. from Union, but having that doctorate might help ease the transition and lower resistance to someone who isn’t a lifelong academic.

So, we do see some academics in traditional faculty, some of which, one would suspect, are tenure-track. How they got there would be a very interesting phenomenological study.

 

Very well put. I think you "hit the nail on the head".

Your final statement is exactly why I started this thread. I find it interesting to hear of how someone made that transition, even though I have no intention of attempting to do so.

 

I particularly think that is not the fact that they have no residencies but the problem that the program is not meant to train scholars. Most residential PhDs are designed to graduate people that will go for tenure track positions so they are designed to be completed in 4 to 5 years as it takes that long to accumulate a good list of publications and have some teaching experience. A NCU is student is most likely a working professional with very little time to publish, it is already hard enough to keep up with the course work and dissertation to add on top the overhead of publications.
Full time residential students are expected to publish in order to graduate and get familiar with the proposal grant writing and conference attendance process. They basically are learning the "trade" to become a professor while the part time online students are just doing the minimum required to complete a doctoral program.
However, the online PhD program has already found its niche. Most people attending online PhD programs do it because they work for government agencies that provide better pay scales to doctoral holders or they are full time non tenure faculty instructors that might get a better pay scale because the doctorate.
I particularly think that this type of programs have their use in the market but can never replace the full time 4-5 years residence programs as they belong to a different breed.

 

That's part of it. But to be more specific, a particularly important part is your advisor. When you go on the traditional B&M academic job market with a doctorate, your advisor is a key component of the package: you are a student of Professor X. If everyone on the hiring committee knows (or at least knows of) Prof. X, then you have a big advantage over a student of unknown Prof. Y.

Now, can you guess which universities attract the most famous and respected profs?

Could it be the B&M schools, which offer top professors high pay, great benefits, guaranteed lifetime employment, and a research-intensive environment?

Or could it be the DL schools, which offer low pay for temporary teaching gigs?

If you could make the career choice between "traditional B&M university professor" or "new DL university professor", which would you choose?

 

I think that Degreeinfo often misrepresents the British 'research degree' model. It's not intended to be a lone-ranger experience, with students working by themselves in isolation. It isn't even intended to be DL in most cases.

Here's the QAA's Code of Practice on postgraduate research degree programs:

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/academicinfrastructure/codeOfPractice/section1/default.asp

See section 5 in particular (exerpts below):

 

That's exactly what I was implying...you just did a much better job of saying it than I did!

 

DL degrees have gained in acceptance in nearly every area. The lowest level of acceptance is for full-time tenure-track positions at brick & mortar universities (as has been noted eloquently above). In my 23 years in higher education, I have known many colleagues with DL degrees. Nearly all of full-time faculty were hired originally based on their B&M masters degrees and earned their DL doctorates after they were hired. Their DL doctorates did not play a factor in their obtaining the faculty position, but their were recognized for promotion purposes.

In academia DL doctorates have relatively good acceptance for those in K-12, for community college and university administrative positions, and for adjunct faculty. Since I oversee an e-Learning campus of a B&M university, I would have no trouble at all recognizing a DL degree as equivalent to a B&M degree.

Now, as has been pointed out in this (and other) threads, the degree is only one piece of the pie when it comes to a faculty candidate. Successful teaching experience, practical field/industry/discipline experience, a record of scholarship and a record of service all play a hefty role in the selection process.