SCUPS Adds DBA and LLM

Accepted, but unnecessary. I have no problem with your demeanor, just the accuracy of a few things you said. Let's not worry ourselves about it.

I don't think so. I have no opinions about SCUPS one way or the other, other than its entire class of unaccredited schools. Perhaps if you would provide a specific example. I've posted 7,000 times on this board, and I'm sure if I've said something negative about SCUPS, it would have been here.

Oh, I don't agree with this. It was an observation, and certainly not presented in a positive or negative way. I gave no opinion about whether or not re-introducing doctorates quickly was a good or bad thing. Frankly, I don't think it is either one. It's just relevant to the question about the value some schools place in the awarding of doctorates--that they'd rush back to issuing them if their DETC efforts were unsuccessful.

This is a matter of opinion, of course. But they reintroduced their doctoral programs before even acknowledging that they were declined. That met my definition of "quick." Not "premature" or "too soon." "Quick."

Okay, so I can't judge it without taking courses there, but you can? C'mon!

As for accreditation, we do not know the exact reason(s) why. But whatever they were, they made SCUPS unaccreditable, which is bad. Especially considering that CCU, Columbia Southern, and Andrew Jackson were all successful. That alone should give one pause regarding SCUPS.

 

They tried. They failed. While we don't know the exact reasons for their failure, we also don't know if they've made the necessary changes to succeed on a subsequent application. The only thing we have to go on is that they, unlike CCU when that school initially failed, have reintroduced the doctorates. That is a step backward, not forward.

 

The California Psychology Board indicates that 10 SCUPS grads were licensed between 2003-2007. So it is clearly possible to move into a professional psychology career via the SCUPS pathway.

But it also appears that the success rate, as with SCUPS JD grads, is rather low. For example, the EPPP exam was reportedly administered 42 times to SCUPS grads between 2003-2006. In light of this statistic, 10 licensed graduates is not a particularly impressive figure.

In fact, it suggests that the SCUPS PsyD grads who don't succeed significantly outnumber those who do. This in turn implies that either the SCUPS PsyD program is deficient, or else that SCUPS routinely enrolls students who have little chance of success. And neither of these alternatives is good.

 

Hello Rich: Thanks for responding. Why I thought you were "hostile" for a lack of a better word towards SCUPS was the mention of a few well known substandard or out right diploma mills in the same frame with SCUPS.

Beleive it or not, I do comprehend where you and Caldog are coming from. If I had not known someone who actually went through one of their programs and did get to see the course work assignments, I probably would be asking the same questions. I did not intend to be "moaning". Again, apology.

It is interesting that the DBA is back up and the LLM. I downloaded the revised catalog. They have made substantial changes. They are now requiring students who want to transfer credits or apply for graduate programs, that the degrees have to be from appropriately accredited schools. They have also tightened up on what courses are required and time limits to complete courses. ????????????? What's in the works??????????

Again, thanks for keeping it civil Rich.

 

Dude: To be fair though, how long ago did this happen? Is there any chance that those who were responsible for these horrible actions are no longer affiliated with the school?

John: Roughly 20 years ago. But the same owner for most, if not all, of those years. The one time I spoke to him, perhaps 10 years after this happened, it was a most cordial conversation about other higher ed matters--I believe it was 1997, when the Chronicle of Higher Education reported (4/25/97) that
"the education and foreign-training division of the government's Office of Civil Service Commissions, recently disclosed that the department had blacklisted five U.S. companies that had sold degrees in Thailand under the names "American Coastline University of Louisiana,""Kensington University,""Summit University of Louisiana,""University of America," and"Southern California University of Professional Studies." I wondered if an apology or explanation would happen, but it didn't. Now it is time for me to practice a little Buddhist detachment, and stop griping about this.

 

Why would they want to get rid of the docs for accreditation purposes when DETC is now allowed to accredit doctoral programs?

 

I know DETC is allowed to accredit doctoral programs. My question is, what
is the reason for activating and removing doctoral degree programs and the LLM over and over again? They need consistent policies in force and their energies should focus on accreditation. If DETC disapproved of SCUPS application for accreditation, SCUPS should not tango with Doctoral programs yet. The university can focus it energy on starting small, then grow once they achieved accreditation. Take it step by step.

 

Are doctorates now a part of DETC's accreditation scope? Their website doesn't seem to indicate that, at least in the descriptions of the few doctoral-granting schools in their pilot.

Also, SCUPS and CCU applied before DETC's pilot. Finally, DETC indicated that a school had to be accredited for two years before it could apply to award doctorates. I don't know how much any of the above still applies.

 

As I understand it, there are a few DETC schools involved in a pilot project related to the accreditation of professional doctoral degrees. I don't really keep up with these matters but I think that Ted is jumping the gun when he says that DETC is allowed to accredit doctoral degree programs. I believe that this entire issue is pending.

 

California Coast and Columbia Southern are two of the schools (the only 2?) that are now offering doctorate's through the DETC program. California Coast doesn't seem to have any info on their website about the doctorate but Columbia Southern has a DBA listed.

 

According to the DETC Accreditation Handbook, " The National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity, which advises the Secretary of the U.S. Department of Education, voted on December 6, 2006 to recommend to the Secretary of Education to expand DETC's scope to include professional degrees. Final Approval by the Secretary is expected by March 2007. At this time, CHEA's recognition is through first professional degree level. "

- DETC Policy on Doctoral Degree Programs
( www.detc.org )

You're right Rich. According to the handbook, "The institution must have been accredited by the DETC for a period of not fewer than 2 years when it applies to have a doctoral degree program approved "

- DETC Policy on Doctoral Degree Programs
( www.detc.org )

Alright. DETC may get its full drivers license for the professional doctorates.
I don't see any exemption clause for the two year requirement, so where does that leave SCUPS. Do they want accreditation or not. If so, they will have to go without their bread and butter for two years. Will they have enough cash flow to survive until then?

 

You both were right, that was the DETC policy. However, in January '07, the DETC made changes to their Accreditation Handbook that includes a change to rule C.16. Policy on Doctoral Degree Programs. http://www.detc.org/acredditHandbk.html
If I am not mistaken this change deletes the wording, "Pilot Program" and "2 year requirement" from the Handbook.

With that, it looks as if SCUPS may be positioning themselves for another crack at DETC accreditation.

 

Hi Bryan - Thanks for the update. I wasn't aware that this process had reached that point. I would assume then that a whole batch of DETC accredited schools will begin development of doctoral programs. It will be fun to see who else pushes this particular envelope.

 

Actually, factoring in failure rate on General Bar times failure rate on the Baby Bar would be an unfair comparison because law students at the more traditional schools are not even required to take the Baby Bar. Hence, your equation (above) does not take account of what percentage of traditional law students wash out of law school before even taking the General Bar.

 

All law schools, regardless of accreditation, lose some students who drop out or flunk out. But it's hard to get specific numbers for these losses. In contrast, it is easy to get specific numbers for students who are lost because they can't pass licensing exams (whether FYLSX or General Bar).

But that's not the point. The real point is that total attrition, from all causes, is vastly higher for unaccredited DL schools than it is for ABA-accredited schools. For example, consider the following numbers:

Total Enrollment:

1,276 Hastings Law School (largest ABA school in northern CA)
1,360 Loyola Law School (largest ABA school in southern CA)
1,500 Concord Law School (not including non-bar "EJD" students)

Total Graduates to Pass General Bar, July 2006:

318 Hastings Law School
297 Loyola Law School
15 Concord Law School

So Concord is a giant among CA law schools when it comes to enrollment, yet it is a pygmy when it comes to producing practicing attorneys. The only way to reconcile these two facts is to conclude that Concord's overall attrition rate must be frightfully high.

And note that Concord is generally regarded as the most successful DL law school. In July 2006, for example, Concord had more bar passers (15) than all other DL schools combined (12 total).

 

DETC doctorate approval

According to the DETC website, The Secretary of Education formally approved the recognition of DETC for an additional 5 years on April 30, 2007. In the same action, the Secretary approved the expansion of DETC's scope to include professional doctorates.

The two DETC schools now offering accredited doctorates are Columbia Southern University (DBA) and the College of Humanities and Sciences, Harrison Middleton University (EdD).