Catalogue of leading degree-mill operators.

Very sad. you guys rate degree mill operators as the same as paedophiles...extraordinary. Everything I have seen these last few weeks, lurking, defies belief. are you guys real?

 

Two questions/comments, Bill:
(1) On the shrinking list of DL buffs: Help me out here. What do you base this on? I keep thinking the list is expanding, but that some of the older crew are moving on somewhat (e.g., Bear, Levicoff, and a few others that most wouldn't know - from the early days of alt.ed.distance).
(2)On Alan Contreras - Serious researchers such as myself could easily discredit Contreras thru a serious and intelligent campaign of published essays purveyed via the internet. The problem with that is that when the well-meaning consumer does an internet search on distance ed and finds Contreras' viewpoint s/he will also find a whole lot of links discrediting his activities and the basis on which he constructs those actions. So Mr. Contreras will certainly have to cross his t's and dot his i's carefully. I have already found mistakes on his website.

But luckily for Contreras he states that Oregon only recognises RA degrees or degrees specifically approved for use in Oregon. The end result is that all distance oriented institutions (the whole field) could become somewhat discredited because the consumer no longer knows just who to trust, including the government.

But I do like your idea of a list, perhaps supported by results of a survey of RA schools - and statements that they would not recognize the degrees of the schools on the list, or statements by government people such as Contreras that states will not recognize certain degrees.

Earon Kavanagh

 

Yes, we ARE real - real names to.

And you are?



------------------
Peter French,
MEd MAcc (UNE) CMA
Australia

 

This may be the result of me stating my point poorly.

What I mean to say is that as the proposed mill-operator list becomes more and more technical and arcane, elaborating the relationships of unknown people to one another and to activities that only a half dozen group participants are acquainted with, 99% of the distance education public will simply stop following it. It will just be more insider shop-talk to them.

It's like any other field: as things get more obscure, the interested public shrinks. Lots of people are interested in history. But only a relatively small circle of historians are interested in the writings of Charlemagne's courtier Einhard.

I don't intend to get into an argument with you over Alan Contreras. Take that issue up with somebody else.

 

That is an excellent point, Bill. And I think that it should derve as a guide for anyone intent on publishing such a list. However, I continue to think that an overview encouraging the consumer to do some planning around short and longterm needs and advising a bit about changing regulations, real accreditation, less-than-wonderful enterprises, practice of real universities in recognizing degrees, etc., would be valuable. In fact, I will do a writup on this and place it on http://www.altcpualumni.org . Those of us who reside there know full well what we are talking about regarding these matters. We still have the scars.

For the record, as you may already know, I don't get into discussions of what school to recommend or which one is bogus, and I generally recommend that a consumer only seek out RA schools or schools appropriately accredited by their country and/or associations as ACU. My motto after 10 years of playing it with risk in terms of education is "Play It Safe, Know Your Outcome and Get It"!
Earon

 

I've been ranting about anonymity lately. Well, this is indeed Peter French. And when he's not posing as someone else (a temporary situation now eliminated), at least we know it's him. I may not agree with him on much, but I'd buy that m-fer a beer the first chance I had!!! Good on ya, Pedro.

Rich Douglas

 

Sadly, this does seem to be the case. With new mills popping into existence on almost a daily basis and old ones making increased efforts to conceal their tracks, it's a confusing scenario.



------------------
Bill Gossett

 

Peter French wrote "Some have gone directly to the employers and never as much as considered the rights of the degree holder - what is wrong with contacting them? I regard this action as reprehensible. Would we like to be treated this way in an area of our lives that someone else decides does not meet their rules?"
And I say good talk Peter. it's about time someone points out this potentially dangerous tendency of SELF POLICING THE ACADEMICS .I however think that a published list of known degree mills and or unauthorized colleges / Universities will be in order, because this will help a lot of people who otherwise would have fallen victims to "FRAUDSTERS".

Thanks,
Tim.

 

That may well be possible, but of course pedophiles take a lot more from their victims than degree mill operators do from their victims. As a matter of fact, I think most degree mill "victims" are really just people who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.


[/B][/QUOTE]
BTW, would you be willing to serve as the DegreeInfo Law Enforcement Officer? It seems we might need some protection if names start surfacing!
[/B][/QUOTE]

It would be an honor! How about a fancier sounding name, like "Sergeant-At-Arms"?

Bruce

 

Sergeant-At-Arms it is!

I don't know about most degree mill degree holders being victims, Bruce. I do believe that many unsuspecting and innocent people have obtained what they thought was a legitimate credential, only to find the contrary. My hunch is that most knew what they were doing, i.e., taking a quick & easy route to a piece of paper---with full knowledge that the school/quality of work/recognition was not equivalent to a RA program. I would think this was especially true of graduate level programs, after one had earned a legitimate undergrad degree.

Russell

 

I should clarify my position. I think most people (when I say that, I mean 50.1%+) know what they are getting when they go into cahoots with a degree mill. I think that percentage rises dramatically when graduate students (Master's or Doctorate) are included in the mix, since I can't imagine a legitimate graduate student not smelling a rat when his/her graduate program was easier than his/her undergrad program.

I too think that many innocent people have fallen prey to degree mills, I just don't think it's as widespread as many degree mill "victims" would have us believe.

Bruce

 

In general, I agree with this. In the situations I'm aware of where someone has busted the chops of someone with a fraudulent degree (the exec. director of the National Association of Neonatal Nurses or Maggie Jensen at Mercer U., for example,) those exposing the bogus degrees first contacted the individuals holding the degrees to seek clarification. I believe in both circumstances, the response was something to the effect of "Piss off."

If someone doesn't respond to what could be legitimate questions about his or her credentials, doesn't offer a denial or defense of the credentials, and the credentials are obviously fraudulent (in this case, both held degrees from Columbia State), then I see no ethical problem with informing the employer that the credentials are questionable.

Am I in favor of actively busting people with bogus credentials? No. But in some cases, such as the person in Alabama who is a State employee charged with determining the safety of aging bridges, I believe that authorities (and the public) have a right to know that the employee in question holds fraudulent credentials.

 

I agree! Some seem to project the view that 95% of those who hold degree mill degrees are "victims" of the system, and that they obtained the degrees with the best of intentions--totally unaware of what was taking place. A recent post stated that one degree mill alone boasted over 14,000 graduates, another 12,000, etc. I have difficulty believing there are that many gullible people in the world.

Russell

 

And 98% of all statistics are made up.

I think there are a lot more gradations and mixed motives than a simple gullible vs. "in cahoots."

One example: Some people are cynical about higher education and contemptuous of its bureaucracy; they think an incredibly low flat fee for a degree proves that all the traditional universities are thieves. They don't see themselves as participating in a fraud because they think all higher education is a fraud.


I get a *lot* of very short e-mail asking "is (this school) ok?" People outside higher education don't know how to evaluate it. And there *are* a lot of gullible people out there, as well as people who are convinced -- on very little evidence -- that they have the equivalent of a college education. (Last year a Cornell professor published a study concluding that incompetent people not only tend not to know they are incompetent, they also tend to be very confident that they know what they're doing -- even more confident than people who really do know.)

------------------
Kristin Evenson Hirst
DistanceLearn.About.com

 

Lets call the:

Whose Whom of Defunct Colleges and Unaccredited Distance colleges and or Untraditional Credited College and Universities.


I don't think it would be a legal problem doing the above.

Goldie

 

But 14,000 at one degree mill alone? If evolution is more than just a theory, then aren't human beings supposed to be progressing. I can understand some of our ancient aboriginal ancestors being suckered into a degree mill scam, but 14,000 contemporaries at one school alone?

Consider the following advertisements:

1. Ph.D. in 27 days.
2. Ph.D. for $395, no work required.
3. BA for $99.
4. College degrees, no work, no one turned down, impress your friends, please momma, get that high paying job, etc.

How much intellect is required to recognize that such degrees offers are...well, just slightly too good to be true?

Russell

 

The really sad thing is that when folks from LaSalle and Columbia State were issued, there were a bunch who basically said "Yeah, I knew it was a fraud", but there was another bunch who said something to the effect of "Well, I was really skeptical, but they said they were accredited, I called the accreditor and they said the school was OK, so I figured it was just something new" And you've got things like the small church in rural South Carolina where the congregation sold their bus to put one of their best and brightest through Columbia State. Or the myriad foreign students who don't know any better.

I think the average person isn't quite as cynical or "show me the money" in their approach as those of us here... but if you think about it, part of the skepticism that those of us here have may be a result of the critical thinking skills that college teaches... the whole concept of going to primary sources for verification and such.

It would be fascinating to do a study on the awareness levels and reasons for people pursuing degrees from several different classes of school... from the "no work, pay $200" BA to the "write one book review" BA to the "work for 12 months doing non-rigorous work" BA.

*If* you could get honest answers, it would be a great study. But I have no idea how one would obtain honest answers, as you have the problem of people not wanting to admit they were scammed, or people not wanting to admit they were scamming others.

 

I don't believe that's true any more than me claiming from your above post that you are trying to defend pedophiles.

 

Chip,

After Potchefstroom, this is my next project. I plan to research and write a Ph.D. dissertation on this subject via Trinity C&U. Of course, it will only be 8 pages long, but I plan to pack some interesting references in the bibliography.

Seriously, I agree it would be an interesting study.

Russell