NCA Gives Trinity (Newburgh) Candidacy Status

Re: Re: Re: Another degreeinfo miracle

 

Bill,
I am glad you survived the shock!
BTW, thanks for being a good sport.

I am both happy and sad to hear about your letter to the NCA. Happy that someone cared enough about quality standards and public confidence in accreditation to do such. Sad that there was little or no response.
I received a similar response from the AABC when I questioned them about certain schools on their affiliate status, and the appearance of approval that such might suggest to some.

If NCA is really slipping, or has slipped, and the trend continues, what does this say about the future of regional accreditation? What will it say about public confidence about such?
Also, it seems much harder to get DL doctoral programs in theology/biblical studies accredited by the national accrediting association bodies (DETC, TRACS, ATS, and some at this time will not even entertain the idea). Does this possible suggest that in the areas of theology/biblical studies that the national associations are the gold standard (the ones that really require rigor)? Or is it possible that the national associations (ATS, TRACS at least) are too bound by tradition in regards to DL?

 

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if Kennedy Western got RA candidacy status.

This is crazy. Kudos for Bill Glover for being proactive on this matter.

Thinking about doing the same. Anyone wanna join?

-S

 

IF NCA is really slipping, or IF NCA has slipped and IF the trend continues?

If appears to be a pejorative term in this context.

An on-site visit was conducted by NCA in November 2003. The following persons conducted the visit, which lasted 2-3 days.

Dr. Ernest Nolan, VP for Academic Administration, Madonna University.

Dr. Susan Sauter, Program Development Chair, Capella University.

Dr. Renee Neely, Assist. VP for Academic Affairs, East New Mexico University.

Dr. Tom Seymore, Professor, Minot State University.

Four persons, currently active in academe, from four unrelated institutions of higher learning, and familiar with NCA norms, conduct an on-site visit in Newburgh. Based on their academic expertise, and what they physically examine in Newburgh, they recommend candidacy status to the NCA Review Committee. The Review Committee, based on the academic criteria used to critique every university within its jurisdiction, deems Trinity worthy of candidacy status.

Yes indeed, it looks like someone is slipping.

 

"Greetings and welcome to the University of Liverpool. You can have confidence in our programmes because we have been fully accredited by Trinity Theological Seminary of Newburgh, Indiana."


Where is Dennis Huber, when we really need him?

 

Russell,
Now by "if" I just meant "if." Sometimes an "if" is just an "if." I do not know if NCA is slipping, I was just asking a question for those who seem to suggest and think it is slipping. That was all that I had in mind with the "if" Russell. I think you have been around here to long and are getting as easy to aggitate as a few others (maybe it is the gun shy principle at work)!
I do not have any first hand experience that the NCA is slipping, nor any other regional accreditor, I am just wondering if it is, and what that would mean for the overall health of RA accreditation.

 

Re: Well, ain't that sumthin.

I think there is a thread on this and the answer is no they are not related. This one looks like one trying to cash in on Trinity.
Uhhh how life turns.

North

 

First of all let me be up front. I am now considering enrolling at Trinity.

Next. I have to agree with Russell. Trinity had a solid NCU evaluation team including folks from the well respected Capella (who themselves did very well during the accreditation process). Is it possible that the sky is not falling and that Trinity obviously has come up to standards (which in spite of the uselessness of Liverpool accreditation they must have been somewhere near to get an imprimatur from Uof L to begin with).

Frankly, Trinity has extremely solid faculty (certainly light years ahead of ACCS). They also have quite a number of faculty, physical plant, etc.

It is amusing to listen to folks despair about RA. Every time a DL school gets candidacy or RA this repeats itself. It happened with Touro U Int'l, it happened with NorthcentralU, etc. Lest we forget Union was at one point called a mill early on and seen in a bad light by academics, as was Capella (Minnesota University system regents slammed it as I recall), University of Sarasota, and lets not forget the continual beating that poor Nova SU takes with people assailing its credibility and tier ranking.

North

 

North said, "First of all let me be up front. I am now considering enrolling at Trinity."

Well, I have not thought about Trinity as seriously as North, but such news about NCA has made me look at and personally evaluate Trinity again as a possible future alternative.
However, I am interested in some more opinions about NCA's standing (or slipping if that be the case), and that of other R/A associations in relation to DL doctorates in theology/biblical studies.

 

As for #1, you may well be correct Alan.

As for #2, not hardly.

 

I don't think the RA/Associations have slipped in regards to theology, I think theology doctoral programs are moving more towards what some DL secular programs are in terms of accessibility.

You already have a couple of compeletly DL PhD programs such as Touro U International & Northcentral U. Then a host of others with short residency such as Union, Capella, Nova, Sarasota (who has a liberal Pastoral Counseling doctorate) and Liberty U with short residency PhD's. Schools like Capella, Walden, and NC Univ. are totally DL insitutions.

NCA is a well respected Regional Accreditor. Trinity had obviously made attempts to bring their programs in line with NCA requirements. They have a real physical plant that as I recall is much more substantial than Walden's for instance. Trinity U has highly qualified and substantial numbers of faculty. As I said, as useless as Liverpool accreditation was it did mean the Trinity met some standards for the UofL to give their stamp of approval.

Now, is a DL theology doctorate say Doctor of Arts in Biblical studies going to be held in the same esteem as a ThD from Dallas Theological Seminary. Not likely. But lets be honest, neither is a Ed from Sarasota with an EdD from Cornell or a UIU PhD with a University of Texas - Austin PhD, etc.

RA is a guarentee of meeting certain set standards. Within this as with any set of standards there are levels (ie those who far exceed such as Harvard).

DL itself is always a little suspect for some folks. I remember a Psychologist reacting with disdain when I mentioned Fielding (short residency Psych PhD that has APA approval). Two other PhD's from traditional schools similarly to the idea of short residency programs.

There is always a pecking order in degree land. DL doctorates are as you are aware are not uncommon in Europe (England, etc). As this is the 21st Century.....we in America are making our way along. UIU, Sarasota, Capella all were called mills at one point. I am sure disdain was heaped on the accreditors for accrediting them. When the Head of the Regents for the Minnesota University system became aware that Capella was being approved I recall that Bear said the guy was upset about a mail order school being legitmized. Today Capella is a respected DL program.

North

 

Hi Jodokk: as North said, "Newburgh Seminary" and TTS appear completely unrelated. Master's Divinity School in Evansville is the shadow school of TTS.
______________________________

As to the matter of this thread: I am not embarrassed. I am disgusted, appalled, and genuinely revolted. You have all spoken for me in various ways. I don't even care that if they pull this off there will be another RA D.A. program (really only in name, as it lacks the pedagogical component). This corruption has more to do with Juvenal than with Jesus.

While as a rule I do not discuss my own work-in-progress until it's done or dead, I look at my present venue, consider how I aaaalmost went with TTS, consider that I would be on my way to an RA doctorate (my ferne Geliebte DA) had I played my cards right and this current venture of TTS happen to work out--and I still have NO REGRETS WHATEVER at having chosen a lesser but more honorable way.

Ecrasez l'infame.

If you wish an expansion of my persepective, go read Robbie Burns's "A man's a man for a' that".

http://www.contemplator.com/scotland/man.html

 

Not only regarding RA, but other forms of recognition as well.

Remember the small volume When the TRACS Stop Short, which basically predicted that TRACS was a dead-end venture? Of course, the TRACS didn't stop short, but were laid all the way to USDoE/CHEA. Not RA, but certainly legitimate recognition.

Likewise, Trinity has long been designated by some as a degree mill. Yet, Trinity has stayed the course and now has candidacy status with a USDoE/CHEA accreditor.

 

I don't think it's a mill. I think it's corrupt.
I didn't think Torquemada was a mill. I know it was and is corrupt.
"Mill" isn't the only criticism that can be leveled at a school.

 

D.A. program

uncle janko said, "I don't even care that if they pull this off there will be another RA D.A. program (really only in name, as it lacks the pedagogical component)."

This is an interesting comment. I am not familiar with other D.A. programs, so a comparison with other accredited D.A. programs would be interesting. Upon reflecting, I wonder if not offering a Ph.D. or Th.D. in biblical studies has actually helped Trinity achieve candidacy?

Here is what seems to be the teaching related components in the Trinity program:
-CE 870 (3 cr) Biblical Theology of Christian Education
-CE 685 (3 cr) Assessing & Applying Appropriate Teaching Strategies

with the following possible coursework being related in some way
- Biblical Studies Internship -
if this is a teaching intership, but I can't find their course description for this aspect of the program.

 

I may be just uninformed, prideful and narrow minded. If so, let someone now show me the fault in my thinking:


[I am uninformed because I do not know the substance of curricular changes TTS may have made in two years. So, everything I say I need to qualify by that.]

.........



If any thinks having doc students use the same cassettes and books non doc students use is rigorous, then now tell me why.

If any thinks that reading Gore's notes and listening to Gore's cassete tapes, which ALL theology students did, is really doctoral level work , then now tell me why.

If any thinks reading Grudem's book on Theology ,which both MA and PhD students did , is really doing doc work, then now tell me why.

If any thinks that getting a doc in Bible, without any learning any Biblical languages , is really rigorous and actually prepares one to teach in college the Bible, then now tell me why.

If any thinks that the TTS DA in Bible Or Theology , EVEN if it gets RA , can possibly be rigorous when having that very doc itself would not qualify one to even ENTER a PhD/ThD in Bible at ANY USA evangelical RA seminary, then, now tell me why.

If any thinks admittance to a doc program in Bible-Theology on the basis of only an unaccredited MA is OK, then tell me now why.

If any thinks that saying "good work" only on a doctoral student's submission is substantive "teaching" , then now tell me why.

If any thinks an accreditor which claims that ethics is its own criterion for accreditation should ignore the history of TTS lies, then now tell me why.

If any thinks I should be more impressed with the TTS Theology program and be forgetful of the TTS history of dishonesty because four ,with secular degrees, like TTS, now tell me why.

If any thinks that it would not be good to have accreditational evaluators of degrees in Bible and Theology actually have themselves degrees in Bible/Theology, then tell me now why.

If any thinks that I have misrepresented TTS anywhere on this forum , then now tell me where.

 

Dennis Huber teaches online business courses for Nova Southeastern University and Touro University International. If you need his email address, I will use Degreeinfo.com private messaging to send it to you.

Ike Okonkwo, PhD

 

NCA has spoken!! It’s apparent to all that AMU/APUS will receive candidacy and subsequently go on to receive full RA and nobody here expected them not to. AMU is in fact a great school. On the other hand, many Degreeinfo.com contributors may not say the same thing about Trinity. If Trinity is eventually successful with its quest for RA, I am sure that it will be a major accomplishment of gigantic proportions and enormity to the school and a benefit of immeasurable magnitude to current and prospective students. Today, it’s Trinity, tomorrow it could be SRU and I guess that we have no choice other than to accept NCA’s verdict. We got it wrong before for NCU and we got it wrong again for Trinity and life goes on.

Ike

 

I think that WASC and SACS are unnecessarily tough on DL. To date, there is no 100% DL college that has received accreditation from SACS. Although MSACHE (Middle States Association) seems to be tough on higher degrees, they are nonetheless flexible with undergraduate programs. The famed “Big Three” (TESC, COSC, and Excelsior) – all operating 100% DL programs, were accredited by MSACHE. I am not in any way against 100% DL programs especially at the undergraduate level.

My argument is that DL school standards and to all intents and purposes, accreditation itself should be enhanced rather lowered. My preceding avouchment was spurred by the harangues that DETC accreditation has spawned in the past. 100% DL programs are great for people with jobs and family. As someone has pointed out earlier in this thread, DL and correspondence programs are popular and common in other parts of the world and I fully concur with this statement. However, I will not fail to state that the reputation of DL programs will enjoy better and universal respectability if the process of authorizing schools that award DL degrees is esteemed and reverential.

As far as accreditation scrutiny goes, NCA appears to be sloppily lenient and incongruous at present. It’s now a common practice for colleges that couldn’t get RA in their regions to move to NCA’s jurisdiction. A case in point is Walden University. After repeated denial of accreditation by SACS, Walden University had to relocate from Southern region to NCA’s zone. That relocation was worthwhile because Walden successfully acquired RA from NCA. Although SCUPS’s sibling (NCU) and AMU never sought RA elsewhere prior to submitting their application to NCA, it is clear that when they finally decided to seek RA, they choose the line of least resistance. I am certain that other colleges will effect similar repositioning in the near future. I don’t know which one of the six RA agencies is the best of the bunch but I definitely know the ones that are hard to chew.

Ike Okonkwo, PhD

 

Of course, Bill, the DA from Trevecca Nazarene would qualify someone for seminary teaching since TNU is RA and its DA follows the patterns set forth as normal for that degree. I suppose that any seminary which wanted a history or music professor with a secular credential would be well served by a DA from North Dakota or Ball State, or one seeking a German prof by a DA grad from Clark Atlanta University, or a rhetorician from Idaho State. The fault lies not in the DA degree as a degree but in the deficiencies of TTS.

Accreditation does not equal absolution. (If they get it.)