Ph.D. or Ed.D. Program- Need Some Advice

.. and comments like these are the reasons I come back to this site periodically. Perspective. Generally a good thing to have. Thank you.

Without taking anything away from my thanks, because they are sincere. I'm curious if there are any statistics anywhere that correlate mid life learners with the corp jobs at Intel or industry in general. I completely agree from experience that I know a lot of people who've gone into industry with PhDs but I've never actually asked them (nor would I insult them by asking) if they did things conventionally or not.

It just seems like the picture in my head is that people in solid industry jobs at the heads of engineering and science departments in firms wouldn't be distance learners; which falls back into the whole research academic paradigm of learning to begin with. Social and Humanities degrees aside of course.

Again, thank you for perspective and I apologize if those come off as tainted because of the follow up question.

 

PhD v EdD

 

I have seen quite a few doctoral dissertations with 100 pages or less from reputable universities. It is content that counts, not the number of words, at many universities.

A quick search in UMI resulted in the following from reputable universities:

Variables related to academic success in pre-engineering for students at risk
by Karcher, Robert Ph.D., Auburn University, 2008, 106 pages; AAT 3333134

Efficacy of office ergonomics training: An evaluation and comparison of instructor and Web-based training
by Rucker, Nathan Paul Ph.D., Texas A&M University, 2004, 73 pages; AAT 3132122

Home-based business workspace: Satisfactions of North Dakota women entrepreneurs
by Bach, Annette L. Ph.D., Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, 1997, 97 pages; AAT 9812501

Women, goal orientation, and success: A family business perspective
by Clark, Shellye Annette M.S., Purdue University, 2009, 87 pages; AAT 1469830

While most dissertations are longer than 200 pages a lower number is quite common.

 

Your argument, at least in reference to Harvard, is flawed.

The Ed.D at Harvard is only titled an Ed.D because the Faculty of Arts and Science is the only entity at Harvard that can grant the PhD title, there for the only college at Harvard that grants PhD's is the Graduate School of Arts and Science. If another college inside the university offers a PhD it is only in conjunction with the Faculty of Arts and Science. For example, that is why a doctorate from Harvard Business School is titled an ABD (DBA or PhD at other institutions) and a doctorate from the Graduate School of Education is titled an Ed.D.

 

Check out John Nash's dissertation for about the right length.










27 pages

 

I agree with Randell and Jayncali. I would only want to add that a doctoral degree can simply be seen as a significant accomplishment within ones lifetime. It need not pay off in terms of dollars or job promotions in order to have value. We spend time and money on all manner of things: bowling, music lessons, gardening supplies. We do it because it has meaning for us, not because we think it will make us rich or famous.

Dollars are not the only bottom line.

 

How about another masters degree in a complementary (or tangential) discipline, such as statistics? How about writing a book? How about publishing in appropriate journals? All are more doable than a five, six or seven year Ph.D. and could be valuable for promotion... Agree?

 

Might be. There are many things that can make one more promotable. I didn't imply there were not. What I objected to was dismissing the value of a doctorate for one's career in the federal government. My personal observations over the years casue me to conclude quite the opposite.

 

I'm not clear upon what basis NCU is "better regarded" than Fielding. I don't know that there is objective data readily available, but I've been involved with such matters since 1979, and its my impression that Fielding is considerably better regarded. And in Psychology, anyway, the APA would agree, no?

 

Useful Article on the Matter

I've been going back and forth about whether to get an EdD or a PhD myself. After chatting with a few people and reading this article, I think I'm going for the more professionally oriented EdD (in Education Administration).

 

Hi Rich,

Steve is talking about Northeastern University in Boston.

 

I am not aware of any empirical studies out there (it would make a great thesis or dissertation). Most of the PhDs in industry that I know are managers of large training groups or work in corporate research, development and evaluation. A good portion of them completed the PhD while already fairly established in theri careers. As my university is preparing for its first (primarily) online doctorates, must of our potential students have been identified as mid-career professionals at larger corporations.

 

Great advice. However, since I am an administrator in higher ed (and also continue to teach), a doctorate has been good for my career. By the way, my dissertation provided material for three peer reviewed journal articles and a book, so if you plan it well...

 

My direct response to this question is those that share my perspective on family will inherently get where I'm coming from and those that don't won't. There's no "right" or "wrong" implied in my opinion.

Personally, I admit to being an obsessive to some extent in regards to the things I care about. I work out 4-6 times a week for an hour each. I also have a young son that I spend a lot of time with and I'm close to director-level in my career. So for me (and those I cohort with) it's a very important decision to make to pursue a doctorate as there are going to be trade offs.

Your mileage based on what's important to you may vary, and that's cool.

1. I'd argue that your tuition reimbursement and financial situation are influencing this statement (as it should).

2. Your situation as a student is not what I wrote the bulk of my post in response to. Sure you have advantages. By all means use them fully

In order to take my posts in perspective to financial gain I'm going to ask you take the following (what I feel to be median) situation in mind.

1. A learner does not necessarily have tuition reimbursed. They need to pay for an education or take loans, or receive a stipend.

2. A learner thinks that the cost of their degree is going to be paid back by the quality of job they have after they graduate.

3. A learner is mid career and thinking of more of a teaching career than a research career and is not in an engineering or high level business discipline (finance/accounting etc.) but rather, a degree that's more common to the online market (social sciences, humanities, business humanities)

Combine the above with the following:

1. An adjunct with a Masters earns 2000 per course for an 8 week semester in my area of the world, and 2400 if they have a PhD at a place that's considered good for pay. State schools are lower.

2. Most adjuncts in my area of the world attempt to work 2 courses per semester in each place they work and try to earn in more than one place.

3. In practice most adjuncts can average 2-3 courses per term, less if they are in one place as commuting and curriculum development take time.

So you're looking at an income of say 40000 a year if you're really good at doing what you're doing after taxes 50/8 = 6.25 terms assuming no vacations except for end of year times 2 courses (12.5 courses at 2400 per course) = 30000 before taxes. I'm being generous with 40000 and in truth this could probably go as high as 50000 if someone is industrious before the labor unions at state schools get antsy.

Now subtract taxes (1/3) = 16500
Now subtract insurance as adjuncts usually don't get benefits = (average out at 400 a month = 4800

You now have 28700 to live on for the year. Is that enough when you consider

1. You may have spent 100000 for that degree.
2. You may have spent a couple years out of work for that degree compounding the loss.

It may be, and you can moonlight with writing and books and other things that may benefit from the PhD. But if you're going to hang your hat on being an adjunct and you're paying the tab for the PhD, it's not a good value proposition at all.

Unless you don't care about all that.. in that case. You're a better man than I and I tip my hat to you.

This is why I strongly recommend brick and mortar PhD programs with stipend to people and push them into research, because once you become an authority, those extra opportunities for income amplify overall earnings.

Does that mean you can't become an authority through a program any other way? No. In fact Randall you have some advantages that make the proposition a lot more palatable from the financial perspective.

Nuff said, more rambling. Just trying to be fair and balanced.

 

Thank you.

This is a valid thought process and one that I believe in as well. That stated, people need to realize that this may be the only "real" or "true" or "right" reason to get a PhD. Self value.

It's a special breed of person though that can keep that conviction through diaper changes, work trials and other factors of life. Not everyone is that kind of person. I applaud your point of view.

 

I agree that it would make a great dissertation (those in business or sociology programs take note )

I also agree that right now, the largest demograph of students looking for an online PhD are likely the mid career learners as the online PhD is something that's relatively new overall and there's a trend towards reducing residency requirements.

I'd be careful with quoting Intel though as a median example due to their year long sabbatical they force or require employees to take after seven years of service. While not easy, there's a built in method for an employee to take a year long residency if they chose to and not many other companies (Patagonia) comes to mind also do this.

So back to point, it'd be interesting to take a time based approach and map availability of PhD programs online against the careers of some of these employees simply to see if the higher number of mid career learners is simply possible due to the accessibility of the programs or if there are other factors contributing to the industry examples you cite.

Obviously my interest implies I fully believe in your message so I hope this doesn't come off as disrespectful, just curious really.

 

PhD v EdD

Variables related to academic success in pre-engineering for students at risk
by Karcher, Robert Ph.D., Auburn University, 2008, 106 pages; AAT 3333134

Efficacy of office ergonomics training: An evaluation and comparison of instructor and Web-based training
by Rucker, Nathan Paul Ph.D., Texas A&M University, 2004, 73 pages; AAT 3132122

Home-based business workspace: Satisfactions of North Dakota women entrepreneurs
by Bach, Annette L. Ph.D., Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, 1997, 97 pages; AAT 9812501

Women, goal orientation, and success: A family business perspective
by Clark, Shellye Annette M.S., Purdue University, 2009, 87 pages; AAT 1469830

The three of these are in home economics or education, not areas where one expects or finds much rigor.

I looked at Efficacy of office ergonomics training: An evaluation and comparison of instructor and Web-based training
by Rucker, Nathan Paul Ph.D., Texas A&M University and that this was sufficient for a PhD in engineering from Texas A& A is truly shocking.

Take a look yourself. The review of the literature is only three pages long.

http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/187/etd-tamu-2004A-ITDE-Rucker-1.pdf?sequence=1

I've had senior thesises that were far better. This thing isn't even a decent Master's thesis.