I just got fried by a prof. for applying to a distance ed school...

Re: Clarification on my previous post...

There is a legitimate point here. As was reflected by other posters, there is a pretty widespread level of eyebrow-raising among trad academics re: dl degrees. (Again, the comment comparing them to night school degrees 20 years ago is apt). Although, Jeff may be taking the opinions of 'some' for all. In any event, as more quality programs thrive (as I'm assuming they will), this is likely to diminish, but perhaps never entirely.

I think Jeff has misapprehended the general use of these terms in this forum. Most references to these types of bodies seem to be to recognized accreditors, things like RA, APA, the British charter system, etc. My reading of his post is that he's assuming that if anything other than RA is mentioned it must mean that the poster is promoting the Royal Worldwide Academic Accrediting Council of the Most Catholic Duchy of Uwannadance.

I disagree that RA means that a program has met the highest standards in the nation, btw. It means it's met the minimum standards for recognition by other RA schools and certain govt agencies, imo. The RA process actually doesn't do much to ensure a quality program. I speak from experience in this - I work for a university that just completed its every 10 year accreditation review and site visit. What was mostly looked at was record keeping and finances and ratio of FT/PT faculty, not very much attention seems to have been paid to the -quality- of the instruction/programs.

GE

 

Re: Re: Not sure what you are referring to... clarify?

David, you are 'absolutely' correct. I certainly am open to changing in midstream. Right now and similar to your past experience, I am not convinced of the benefit to doing assessments and testing. I would welcome any positive change in evolving in that direction. I would have to see, experiment, and evaluate. As I have evaluated my options, I know it is a risk concerning Capella's potential APA accreditation. It is a calculated gamble. As I have talked to the Capella folks, the faculty member who is in charged of APA preparations for application has already successfully taken another previous school into APA programmatic accreditation. Capella is being fastidious in their self-study phase. I'm told this is already done. They are formally submitting all the proper paperwork real soon. I was also told that though the standard "official" APA speel is it can take as long as 5 years, that it is more probable it will happen within 2 years from applicaton.

I can have the benefit that if I have to bakctrack into "Clinical" curriculum it will be with minimum problems since it will still be within the school of Pych. and new material would be mainly the assessment and practicum/internship coursework.

Then there is also "Respecialization" as another avenue. This is what you did if I recall correctly (I.S.U.).

Thanks for your thoughts Dave!

 

Thanks Simon!

I agree... I would not go through the long gauntlet so that, in the end, it not be used. That would be a waste of time and $$$.

Please note that when you initially responded to my posting regarding my interpretation of the differences between Fielding and Capella, I percieved your reference to APA standardization to be referring to general distinctions between clinical and research competencies, and responded accordingly. Obviously, if you were referring to specific standardized core course requirements for psychology doctorates you are correct. I apologize if I mispercieved the specific issue you were addressing.

Simon[/QUOTE]

No problem, Simon. Even the best sometimes can make a mistake! Yes, I was simply referring to APA course requirements towards licensure. I realize that research degrees and clinical degrees do have some differences though in APA Clincial Psych the Ph.D.'s (research emphasis) and Psy.D.'s (clinical emphasis) can get the same licensure.

Thanks for all your thoughts, Simon. I give your input careful consideration!

 

Blackbird,

Just wished to share some additional thoughts re: this subject.

A) Considering that Capella will accept up to ten courses for transfer into their doctoral program in Family Psychology, one will still have to take a large number of required core courses.

Point 1: Unless one is very certain that they wish to pursue licensure in Clinical psychology, there is highly questionable benefit in completing a host of core courses that will not have any real value in terms of improving one's level of competency or prestige in the "eyes" of the public relative to the area of counseling you have stated you wish to specialize. It will also add significantly to the expense for the degree.

B) As you are aware, the state of Florida has one of the most rigorous requirements for licensure in Psychology in the USA and APA approval is mandatory.

Point 2: Since you reside in Florida, even if you eventually decide to transfer into Clinical Psychology at Capella, it may not meet the criteria for acceptance in the state of Florida.

Point 3: If you should ultimately decide to transfer to an APA program, such as FIelding, you need to be clear whether you will meet their standards for admission. As previously mentioned this includes signifcant research interest and background and an emphasis on research throughout the curriculum.

Furthermore, one will be required to successfully pass a very rigorous examination in psychology in order to attain licensure, that in itself will take a significant amount of time to prepare for.

C) Pursuing a doctoral degree in Psychology at Capella will probably take a longer period of time to complete and be considerably more costly than a doctoral degree from their department of Human Services.

Point 4: The department of Human Services is much more flexible and will most probably be a quicker route to complete a doctorate.

Point 5: You have mentioned on a number of occasions that you are vey satisfied with your LMHC credential and UNLESS you are very certain that you wish to transfer into a Clinical Doctoral program in the future, there will probably be very little benefit that will emanate from this transfer and quite a bit more time, money and energy expenditure. These are factors that you have previously noted are not congruent with your current needs and future objectives.

Point 5: A doctorate in one of the specialization areas of the department of Human Services at Capella is consonant with your stated career goals and professional/personal needs. It potentially provides the shortest and least expensive route to acquiring the credential you are seeking, a doctorate, that is congruent with your LMHC credential.

D) Testing, assessment and research is the foundation for a doctorate in Clinical Psychology.

Point 6: Blackbird you have noted in a number of previous postings that you are not really interested in testing. Although you are open to considering testing as a possible competency to incorporate into your skill sets in the future, currently it is not.

Although it is always wise to provide oneself with latitude in planning future goals, it is also important to consider current needs, values and interest. Testing is not one of them at this time, and considering the cost, time and energy investment in a Clinical psychology degree at Capella, as well as your stated future professional interests, it may be an advantage to consider obtaining a doctorate in a specialization from the department of Human Services.

E) Blackbird, you have mentioned that you wanted a doctorate that would not require a great deal of time or money. However, the psychology doctorate, even in Family systems, will most probably require the antithesis of what you are seeking in terms of these factors.

Point 7: If you have'nt done so, it may be advantageous to speak directly to the chairperson of the department of Human Services at Capella prior to making a final decision ( perhaps you have done so already). Discuss your needs, goals, aspirations and the possibilities that you are considering and I am certain you will find that the chairperson of this department will provide some useful suggestions.

F) It is important to note that when one is in the process of making a career/educational decision and is accepted into a doctoral program, such as Psychology, one feels a surge of exuberance or "high". One may feel that they are on a roll and that nothing is impossible. This is a great sensation but ultimately reality prevails and each of us is confronted with the bottomline: Did we make the right educational decision that placed us on a linear course or in fact resulted in a more lengthy and time consuming process costing big bucks without providing sufficient benefit for our signifcant investment!

G) As adult learners this issue is particulaly critical at our stage of personal and professional development. We needs to factor in these bottomline considerations prior to making an educational choice of the magnitude of doctoral level studies. The career/educational resilence of youth, in terms of the degree of time loss for trial and error and ability to recoup this lost time and money is an issue that should be evaluated carefully at this vital stage of our lives.

Point 8: Obviously, we want to maintain the "door" open to consider future options if they attract us, but the need to focus on present and future goals, needs, interests and purpose is key to realizing our goals without creating too many detours and detractions leading to the ultimate attainment of our goals.

H) The final consideration to keep in mind is that although a doctorate in Clinical Psychology is considered to be a more prestigious degree than an one in counseling or related disciplines, the field of Clincial Psychology itself is inundated with professionals vying for business and economic solvency in the domain of private practice and in competition for good jobs in the private, academic and government sector. In other words, although providing more opportunities in certain realms it is not the viable pathway for everyone wishing to enter the mental health/social services field. and is not the "ticket" it once was in terms of providng wonderful opportunities In fact, Psychiatry rules the roost at the current time.

What may be generally true regarding a profession such as Clinical Psychology does not lead to the conclusion that it is the best means for most individuals in order for them realize their professional goals and dreams. Yes, there is no argument there is intrinsic benefits in possessing a degree in Clinical Psychology. However, ADULT learners especially need to carefully examine and be cognizant of the realities associated with their age and other time limitations inherent to attaining their objectives with as few detours as can reasonably be forseen.


Blackfbird, the best of luck in whatever direction you ultimately pursue.

Simon

 

Just the facts...

I commented on this post originally because Blackbird was concerned by someone comments made about how distance education can be perceived by some:

"Distance ed schools not looked on favorably by residential schools."
It has been my experience that this is true.

"If no licensure is obtained at doctoral level, it is a waste of time."
I don't really agree with this statement and felt that Blackbird was right on track.

"If all that the school requires is a simple recommendation (no forms to fill) that makes me suspicious and distrustful of the program."
Could not disagree with the person that Blackbird spoke to more, this has nothing to do with quality or value of an institution.

Do I think that Capella is a good school? I certainly do.

Are there schools that are stonger academically? Sure there probably are.

Is Capella for everyone? Probably not, no school can be everything for everyone.

Is it for Blackbird? While that is a personal decision I would say that given his research that it sounds like it may well be a good fit.

My point was to comment on where these ideas orginate form. The person that Blackbird talked to is represenative of too many people in academia and "the real world". As those of you who know from my previous post, I believe in and work in higher eduacation. I know that distance learning and online education is the future of education. But where I differ from so many is in terms of quality and accreditation. I am not anti-DL at all. However, I think that people should be aware of what they are getting into. Online education does not imply easy education as many would have you believe. Accreditation is not a be all to end all but it is the best that we have. I also worry that most DL programs do not train people well enough for research required at the graduate level. My main focus in my career has been to promote and advance quality educational opportunities for adult learners. There are so many students out there that have been burned in one way or another by misleading and in some cases fraudulent programs. I do beleive in distance education if done properly.

Jeff Whetzel
BS Indiana University
MA Ball State University


Dear John,
"You will also note that your own alma mater also offers many DL master degrees: http://www.bsu.edu/distance/degrees/

Maybe your own MA was done in this format or had a DL component."

While I am glad that you checked out my alma mater you will be surprised to learn that I think these are excellent programs. I did not go through one but they are very good, quality DL programs.

Dear Gary,
"Anyone from just about any school can say such things about "lesser" schools. That doesn't make the "lesser" schools illegitimate or lacking in value, and they are certainly good options for many people. If that weren't the case then the only RA schools we'd have would be the top schools, and only an elite few would even have valid degrees."

Your shot at my personal educational backgound actually helped reinforce my point which is: There is always going to be a better, stronger program somewhere else, so aim as high as you can in the first place. I don't mind the fact that you and others may not look highly on my MA from BSU, but I know that it has prepared me well for what I plan to do. That is something that I considered when I evaluated graduate programs and I wish that students would as well. I think that Blackbird was doing so in his post. My attempt was to demonstrate that there are people who are really concerned with or turned off by distance edcuationa nd that accreditation is a key to snuffing out this mentality. Also forgot to point out that in my example I made it clear to insert a, "low quality, online only, un-accredited school for comparison". Neither Capella or BSU fit that description. But it was a nice try to take a shot at me. I get that all the time from people who choose not to use their real names or to divulge their personal educational background, so what can I say.

And finally for our administrator Bruce,

You should know that I work for Indiana Wesleyan University becasue I have talked about here before. So the huge secret that you and so many others uncovered was really nothing more than common knowledge. I have always refrained from promoting our programs here because I didn't feel that it was my place in this situation. My comments are merley made out of my sincere hope that everyone will find a program that works for them and meets there needs whatever that may mean. I know what type of programs that we offer here and I am very proud of them and stand behind the 100%, yes we are RA. But I must admit that I am troubled in a since that even the administrator of this board would make this so personal. The fact that I am one of a handful of people on this board who uses real names makes me suspicious of all that is ever done and siad here. I am not accusing anyone of anything but it makes me question everyones
motives for participation?

I thought that I would close with a personal observation for all to consider:
Two of the brightest people I know are, by my modern measures, uneducated. One has an 8th grade education and 80 years of life expereince and the other is a name school drop out. Go figure!

 

Re: Just the facts...

I, too, thought I'd close with a personal observation for all to consider:

You make inflammatory statements (see my last posting in this thread) and then fail to back them up. You've done it in this and other threads. You fail to answer direct questions about your own postings. You are nothing but a troll and your posts should simply be disregarded as trash, an unfortunate and unavoidable side-effect of the freedom of the internet.
Jack

 

Re: Just the facts...

Well Jeff, with almost 2200 members, it's kind of tough to remember them all, especially ones who have made less than 30 posts.

In any case, my question was rhetorical. Someone wanted to know if you were the same Jeff Whetzel at IWU, and I asked the question how many there could be in DL, because the chances of there being two were slim indeed. I'm still trying to figure out how that makes it "personal".

As for real names, if you've read the front page of this site, you'd have seen my true and full name is Bruce Tait. I use just "Bruce" because I sometimes log in from a public computer, and it's easier to type one name than two. No big conspiracy.


Bruce

 

Jeff Whetzel,

The problems with your posts have already been mentioned. It is rather discomforting to understand that you work for a DL program because you are either trolling and pretending to be ignorant of DL to bait folks are you are truely ignorant.

You appear lump all non-RA programs together as unaccredited. You do not have a clue about National Accreditation (what it means, entails, the US Dept of Ed, etc). You misrepresent the potential of foreign program graduates. You make bizarre statements about this forum.

North

 

Capella's academically sound

Greetings! I am not sure how much my opinion is worth in this discussion...However, I have found Capella's program to be very challenging and have made several close friendships while enrolled in the program.

Robert F Hayes, ABD in Psychology at Capella University

[email protected]

Assistant Professor of Psychology and Psychology Coordinator
Lexington Community College

Adjunct Professor of Family Studies
University of Kentucky

 

My answer but frustrating forum procedures...

Simon... I answered your whole long post but when I went to post it I got bounced off and lost it all except a portion I had copied earlier. I am frustrated that this forum does that. On long posts you can lose everything if you are not careful to copy it into your clipboard. Maybe the moderators could change this frustrating feature. I've been on other boards and they don't do that. Also, this forum does not let you post if it is a cetain length. I wish that could change since it will cause you to have to break your post into two which complicates things.

I'm only including my orginal answers from number 4 on. Sorry I lost the earlier answers... whew... I'm tired!

Thanks but as said earlier, I'm not sure that is true because of extra courses in Social Psych and Organizational Issues, etc. I looked at both programs and they would both take me about the same.

I spoke to Dr. Malcolm Gray, who is the chair of the Family Psych. program at Capella. He felt that the program would take me around 2 years to do with all the transferred work credited.

True. I agree. I'm just thinking that if I got my Clinical course work done with no extra work, pretty much, if I ever wanted to go the Licensure route I would be able to "respecialize" but need only the practicum and the pre and post doct internships to comply with APA requirements. This is assuming Capella gets their programmatic accreditation.

As stated earlier, I'm not convince of this. I think it would be as expensive and as long as the option I'm taking.

Also, let me clarify, probably I was not clear. Right now I do not have my L.M.H.C. though I am working towards the post graduation hours to qualify to sit for the state exam. Sorry if I said something earlier that was confusing on this.

You are right. If I were to acquire it then it would be simply for opening up other options such as Forensic Testing for competency to stand trial. I understand you make between 150-250 per evaluation done for a judge or lawyer... not to mention expert witness fees. But you are right, it is not my preferred medium.

Thanks... I'll keep it in mind.

Around 2 years. If not... I'm OK going for 2.5 or 3 years.

Very correct. There is a balance. Maybe it is the Ying-Yang thing. Each person has to know themselves well enough that they, hopefully, can know when they are sensing making incorrect steps. I hope I can.

An old wise man said, "In the multitude of counselors, there is wisdom." That is why I come to Degreeinfo's forum!!!!

Well said, Simon. I could not have said it better!

Thanks Simon. I appreciate your input.

By the way, Simon, are you a clinical psychologist and did you go to fielding?

Have a great day!

 

Re: My answer but frustrating forum procedures...

Blackbird,

Just wanted to respond to some of your comments.

Blackbird: Thanks but as said earlier, I'm not sure that is true because of extra courses in Social Psych and Organizational Issues, etc. I looked at both programs and they would both take me about the same.

I spoke to Dr. Malcolm Gray, who is the chair of the Family Psych. program at Capella. He felt that the program would take me around 2 years to do with all the transferred work credited.

Simon: The vast majority of students take a minimum of two and a half to four years to complete their programs unless they are extremely focused and can complete all their course work, residencies, comprehensives and dissertation in record time. The fact that Capella is tightening their standards for the comprehensives and dissertation translates into more time than less.


Blackbird: True. I agree. I'm just thinking that if I got my Clinical course work done with no extra work, pretty much, if I ever wanted to go the Licensure route I would be able to "respecialize" but need only the practicum and the pre and post doct internships to comply with APA requirements. This is assuming Capella gets their programmatic accreditation.[/b]

Simon: The rationale for broaching this issue is that you mentioned on a number of previous occasions that you did not wish to engage in an extremely long and intense doctoral program. The clinical program you are referring to above can take up to five years to complete at Capella. At Fielding I personally know of several individuals who required approximately eight to ten years to complete their doctoral degree. I'm just attempting to provide some of the bottomline realities that can be expected in completing any substantive clinical doctoral programs.

Blackbird: As stated earlier, I'm not convince of this. I think it would be as expensive and as long as the option I'm taking.

Also, let me clarify, probably I was not clear. Right now I do not have my L.M.H.C. though I am working towards the post graduation hours to qualify to sit for the state exam. Sorry if I said something earlier that was confusing on this.[/b]

Simon: No problem. Have you considered speaking with the Chair of Capella's Human Services Program to totally rule it out as a possibility?


Blackbird: You are right. If I were to acquire it then it would be simply for opening up other options such as Forensic Testing for competency to stand trial. I understand you make between 150-250 per evaluation done for a judge or lawyer... not to mention expert witness fees. But you are right, it is not my preferred medium.[/b]

Simon: Are you interested in Forensics? As you are aware, interest in a specialization such as forensics should precede monetary remuneration potential. Obviously, the money is attractive but do you want to engage forensic populations and do testing?


Blackbird: I understand. I don't know if you can relate to this or if this is your cup of tea but I think that there is an element of "calling" and "divine leading" in this. Bolles (sp?), who wrote What Color is Your Parachute?, has a section on Divine Mission and finding your vocation. You could say that a lot of what Mr. Bolles talks about there applies to my process of decision on this. I may be wrong but I've been here before in other scenarios and ussually there was a sense of something going on... in the BIG SCHEME OF THINGS. I don't know if you buy into that but that is where I'm coming from.[/b]

Simon: Blackbird, as they say in the "bible", different strokes for different folks. I am very familiar with Bolles works and have found that some people benefit from application of his principles while many others do not. It is based on ones' personality typology, values and needs. If his constructs are congruent with yours then go for it.

Blackbird:You are absolutely correct. I agree wholeheartedly. God knows I don't want to make a "stupid" mistake if I can at all avoid it.

Simon: The issue does not revolve around "stupid mistakes" but costly decisions in terms of time, energy and money expendure.

Good luck!

Simon

 

Thanks Jeff!

I just got official word of full admission into their Ph.D. in Family Psychology and so far I am very impressed by the the way the whole process has gone and how "open-minded" the staff and faculty are. I guess I'm used to being treated like a "highschooler" (though I'm 49) by these Brick and Mortar traditional schools that have not totally figured out what adults learners are all about. I'm glad to finally get some respect and affirmation. We'll see how this experience develops.

Thank you, Jeff, for your valuable thoughts and "open-mindedness!"

 

I want to make it clear that I in no way meant to imply that Ball State offers anything less than good, solid programs. I was just trying to make a point about the idiocy of elitism. Please don't let this post take this thread off track again.