I just got fried by a prof. for applying to a distance ed school...

I think this whole thread is very interesting. In 1995 I wanted to begin my doctorate in adult education. I had originally chosen NOVA because it was convenient to my work and RA. However, my employer was unwilling to support that program because it was DL. He was concerned about credibility, he was also concerned that it was an Ed.D. not a Ph.D.. As an MD from a traditional program he found it hard to make the leap. Eventually he decided to support an Ed.D. if I would go to a more traditional university. This meant lots of commuting (90 miles one way) and lots of time spent away from home. Ultimately, I earned the Ed.D. form Oklahoma State and got to study under a great professor where I gained a great deal.

However, I have learned much since then about DL. As an employer with more than 350 employees, I now regularly encourage education in general and DL specifically. DL allows my employees to gain skills and to advance. In my particular field, rehabilitation counseling, there are now more than 15 universities offering RA degrees at the master's level that are recognized for certification and licensure. This field faces a critical shortage nationwide and the only way to get the more than 4000 people needed at the master's degree level is to use DL. I expect the programs my staff choose to be RA or CORE. However, in rehabilitation practice this is now commmon. Texas Tech, Arkansas Little Rock, George Washington University, Virginia Commonwealth, San Diego State and Utah Stae are just a few examples. Three programs are now offering distance doctorates, Virginia Commonwealth, San Diego State/Northern Colorado cooperative program and begininning next August, Arkansas at Little Rock. I think these are exciting, viable options. I wish these kinds of choices had been avialable earlier. Although I value my doctorate, I might have had more time with my family if there were other choices that my employer had understood and not the unfortunate bias that still rules.

 

I agree with your post and believe that it is for this reason that good accredited DL degrees must be supported by the DL community and the poor unaccredited choices shunned. DL is becoming more mainstream for working adults at the same time there are the many mill options on the net that nip at the credibility of DL learning. Newcomers to DL are still concerned about being stigmatized if their degree is labled a correspondence degree or even if the diploma says external, online, etc.

When I first ventured into DL through USNY in the early 80's I had many of the initial concerns. I had one professor from my B&M alma mater who was against DL as a learning mode so it made me think that the whole higher ed. community was not in favor of it. With the help of Dr. Bear's consulting service and some of my own research I was able to sift through the viable options and chose the USNY option. It was a great choice and I have been sold on quality DL programs ever since.

I think what is important to note is that DL is not for everybody. At times it can be a lonely road. To complete a degree program through DL requires an individual to be a self starter and also very mature about their educational choices. This is contrasted with the the many college freshmen who are just out of high school and still do not know what they want to do.

John

 

It is interesting. I was at a professional meeting this week where someone spent most of the meeting bashing distance degrees. She had graduated from Boston University and felt it was impossible for anyone to graduate from a rehabilitaiton counseling program that was DL and acceptable. Yet the reality is quite different. All of the distance master's degrees are RA and fully accpeted by every state vocational rehabilitation agency in America. As a matter of fact many were funded and initiated by the Rehabilitation Serivces Administration, which is part of the Department of Education. Her bias was established by a professor several years ago that said all DL is bad. The reality is quite different. After a brief discussion, with accurate information, she was able to decide that she might support one of her staff at Western Washington University's DL master's. The choice was lose a quality staff person so he could forfeit 2 years of his career and maybe not return to her firm, or support him at an RA master's program that could meet his needs and allow him to be a valued employee. Ultimately her desire to keep him in the fold allowed her to see a different viewpoint.

 

J.R.
Thanks for your thoughts. I was out of town and missed some of the action. I will respond in another post on this thread and thank all for joining in with their thoughts! Thanks on the photo... I just got McCartney's new DVD with the full Driving USA concert and and George Harrison's last and newest posthumous CD... looking forward to enjoying them at Christmas since as my Christmas gift... can't touch them until then...

 

'Bird,

It seems like you've decided to go the psychology v. counseling route. Is this accurate? If so, I'd be interested in hearing about the factors that drew you to Capella as opposed to APA approved Fielding.

David

 

Thanks to all... I'm staying the course!

Sorry it has taken me a while to respond. I have been out of town.

I wanted to say “Thank You” to all of you for taking your precious time and effort to communicate on my situation and dilemma.

Though I do not consider myself a “wimp” when making decisions I was taken back by a professor that has been very supportive until he heard that I was applying to a distance school for further doctoral studies. I was surprised to have gotten such a big “emotional” reaction from him. As has been implied in your posts, I realize that we all have our “box” from which we see the world. His box is residential schooling because that is the way he went.

Another professor who has a wider worldview said to me that choosing a school is a matter of which club I wanted to belong to. No matter which club you belong to there will always be another club that looks down on you. Our club will probably look down at a “lessor” club. All belong to a “club” of some sort. I thought this was a very wise observation.

I have decided to stay the course. I do not need doctoral level licensure in Clinical Psychology. I already have a Masters degree which qualifies me for state licensure in Mental Health Counseling (L.M.H.C. comparable to L.P.C.). I have no interest in doing assessment/testing which comprises a large portion of a standard Clinical Psych. doc program. I have no interest to work long-term for an agency. My interests are in doing a little teaching on the Community college level, public speaking, writing, and private practice. The purpose of the Ph.D. is simply to gain more credibility in the eyes of the “general public” (not academia) and to position myself via marketing of my skills and services. A Ph.D. looks better than an MA/MS in Counseling. I spoke to a Fielding grad who is a psychologist and also a L.M.H.C. This person recommended a Psych Doc. with emphasis in Family Psychology (which Capella offers). I would not need licensure in Family Therapy since the L.M.H.C. would give that legal right and the further training (Ph.D.) would provide certification in competency with couples and family issues.

I have continually heard that if one is going into private practice, then the only thing that matters is licensure, either on the Masters level or on the Doctoral level. Otherwise, it is only in some large institutions (academic or medical) that “what” school you went to is important, even with licensure. For the most part, licensure is a leveling field. A Yale grad has to get licensure just as much as an Argossy or Fielding grad does. I imagine that “Yale” on your resume is more attractive to some than Argossy or Fielding but then again, many organizations who use licensed psychologist mainly want someone with that license, which means a certain level of competency.

The beauty of Capella is:
1. One can enroll on a per course basis. If it proves to be disenchanting then one can always change to a school like Fielding.

2. Capella is applying for APA accreditation (Clinical Psych. Ph.D. program). If one tailors classes to include the core clinical psych. courses then a change later can be facilitated (by including practicum, internship, and assessment courses).

3. Capella is unique in accepting a maximum of 10 classes (50 quarter hours/30 semester hours) from your Masters in Counseling Psych. into their Ph.D. in Psych program. Saybrook (18), Walden (24?), and Fielding (6-9) do not do this. Although there are some schools that do accept from 30 to 60 hours (like Fl. Inst. of Tech. or Marywood University) they require that you sell your house, rip your kids out of school and relocate. Add to this the possibility of being on food stamps which is difficult to get since student status is looked down in Medicaid/Food Stamp state agencies. In any event, at Capella it is conceivable to do a Ph.D. in 2.5 years by transferring all ten classes.

Again, folks, thanks for your input. I carefully read every post and considered your thoughts. If anyone desires to give me further input they are welcome. They can either post here or send me an e-mail at: [email protected] .

 

Blackbird,

It seems that you carefully assessed your needs and goals and made a viable choice. BTW, Fielding's orientation is geared towards a much higher level research than that of Capella. This level of research does not seem to be congruent with your professional goals, which appear to be clinical in nature.

Good luck!

Simon

 

Not sure what you are referring to... clarify?

Simon...

I'm not sure what you are specifically referring to with respect to comparing Fielding with Capella. Assuming that Capella would be competing to get their APA programmatic accreditation in clinical psych. I would assume that the requirements as pertains to competency areas are the same in both Fielding and Capella. They are standardized by APA requirements. Now if you are referring to the fact that Fielding makes you run through more hoops by not transfering as many classes and requires you, therefore, to stay longer in their program (and pay more $$$) then you might have a point there. I would be curious if doctoral dissertations at Fielding are "better" than those produced by Ph.D. candidates at Capella. If you or anyone has information on this I would be very interested.

I think what you are saying is especially true when you compare a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology with a Psy.D. in Clinical Psychology. One is more clinical and practical and the other is more aligned to research though both prepare for the same licensure in Clinical Psychology. I would not know if that applies to comparing two similar (?) Ph.D. degrees from different institutions.

If anyone has input, please do so.

Anyone out there who has done their Ph.D. in Clinical Psych at Capella or Fielding? Any other input?

Thanks for your thoughts, Simon!

 

Re: Not sure what you are referring to... clarify?

 

Dissertations from either school can be reviewed at UMI Proquest digital dissertations. This web page allows you to do a search by topic, by author, by school, or by committee chair. I strongly reccommend it when selecting a committee chair. You can see if your chair has successfully helped others graduate. This will make a difference in how well your program goes.

As an aside, both Fielding and Capella have more than 100 dissertations listed over the last two years. This is the same webpage that lists all completed disserations in this country and can help you do searches about overseas schools.

 

Checked it but only had access to three dissertations.

I checked it out but only had access to three dissertations. Probably it requires subscribing in order to see the rest?

Here is the web site for those interested:
http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/

 

Yes, unfortunately, Digital Dissertations isn't a free resource. You might check to see if you have access to it through your local public or university library. The Miami-Dade Public Library, for instance, has databases available to users with a valid library card number via the internet--Digital Dissertations may be among them, although I can't determine that from where I am. Also keep in mind that most libraries will allow you to use their facilities even if you aren't affiliated with them.

 

Clarification on my previous post...

I felt the need to come back and clarify as to what I meant in my previous post. As some of you know I have my MA degree from Ball State University and would like to get started on my doctorate as soon as possible and had at one point coonsidered doing so via DL through an online program. However after asking some people in my field, higher education administration, I was shocked to learn that DL degree were frowned upon. I was told that this would really limit my ability to find work and to move up the administrative ladder at most institutions. Even accredited programs like the ones at The University Of Nebraska and NOVA would always be something that I would need to professionally defend. To me it is not worth the hassle.

As for your comments North,
" What Forum are you referring to??? Certainly not this one. As a number of folks have pointed out your comments are not reflective at all of this Forum. Most posting here who are earning doctorates are doing accredited doctorates of one sort or another (RA or Nationally Accredited or Foreign Equivalent) and the ages vary. I am a Gen Xer. Very few here are looking for something for nothing. Those plugging away at doctorates have been or will be plugging away for some time. Mills are not touted here and people try to disuade those wanting milled or even unaccredited degrees in favor of accredited/equivalent options."

Yes I am referring to this forum. Certainly a number of folks have disagreed with my definition of quality education programs. I guess in my mind, and maybe it was not made clear in my last post, I do not beleive that all, even those with some sort of accreditation, distance learning institution were created equal. Here people often intermingle terms like "RA or Nationally Accredited of Foreign Equivalent" when they are not even on the same page. A RA program is and should be looked upon everyone, in the US at least, as a program that has met the highest standards in the nation. Sure a real "national accrediting" body would be great but since we do not have one we must accept what we do have. National accreditors are a dime a dozen in this and other countries, in fact you and I could start our own and create a web site good enought to mislead thousands of people. As for the "Foreign Equivalent" crowd get ready now for the unemployment line because if you thought going the unaccredited non-traditional route was tough watch out because you are in for a rude awakening.

While I see where your criticism is coming from I still think that it is unfounded. You yourself are currently going through a Non-RA doctorate program (*I beleive, correct me if I am wrong). You cannot separte yourself from this dicussion. If you thought that what you are working on, and you may well be working very hard, was less than a quality degree you would be silly to finish it. It is in your best interest to make a case for programs like the one that you are currently in. Thats not to say that youa re going to a "bad school" it all has to do with how it will be received in the real world. I wish that DL and online programs were better received in the real world but the fact of the matter is that they are not. Why do I care, because I see so many people "earning" degrees through non-traditional means and then expecting the world to be handed to them. Then they are disappointed to learn that what appeared to easy at the time really was. I am not anti-DL however, we must ensure that DL is held to some sort of standard to ensure the growth and respectability of these degrees in the future. I see a number of people going about this the wrong way: Don't get a bad degree and then attempt to make it what you wanted in the first palce, that hurst us all (Degree holders in general). Instead only go where you know you will receive a high quality education,a nd that means RA in the US. We all know it, we just don't want to admit it.

Jeff Whetzel
I can't wait for the onslaught of message from people who disagree with me, but I am up for it!

 

Re: Clarification on my previous post...

.................................



Addressing now only rigor, not utility which I feel less equipped and disposed to argue:

I have three grad degrees from US, B/M, RA schools. My DL work equals or exceeds these in rigor and learning.

As to the rigor of Ed docs in RA B/M schools, I was also in one of these for 1 1/2 years. While I didn't begin the research, I
completed much coursework. The rigor by comparison of my one year in an unaccredited DL program makes the requisites for that B/M RA doc in Ed program :



PIPSQUEAK



Congratulations on your endeavor, but I know and have experienced that if quality is defined in terms of rigorous learning then RA B/M does not necessarily surpass either US nationally accredited, 'foreign' government approved, or even in some cases unaccredited DL. But again, this refers not to utility which is limited by the false assumptions of B/M superiority.

 

accreditation

"A RA program is and should be looked upon everyone, in the US at least, as a program that has met the highest standards in the nation."

Jeff,

I agree that one should seek the best education possible. However, I think you place too much emphasis on regional accreditation. The University of Chicago is regionally accredited. So is California State University, Fresno. They are not equal.

Merely looking for the regional accreditation seal of approval is not enough, although it is generally a good starting point.

 

foreign degrees

"As for the "Foreign Equivalent" crowd get ready now for the unemployment line because if you thought going the unaccredited non-traditional route was tough watch out because you are in for a rude awakening."

Jeff,

You are right that some people are seeking the quick and easy route, although not perhaps to the extent your words imply.

I am not sure specifically what "foreign equivalent" degrees you are referring to. The Royal Charter system in the United Kingdom is even more exclusive than Regional Accreditation in the UNited States. If I was to obtain a Ph.D. in Archaeology from the University of Leicester or a Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Sheffield, I would not only have a quality education, but be eminently employable in those fields.

 

And if our colleague C. Seibel gets his doc at Stellenbosch, he will have an eminently "marketable", indeed distinguished, credential in theologyland.

 

"And if our colleague C. Seibel gets his doc at Stellenbosch, he will have an eminently "marketable", indeed distinguished, credential in theologyland."

Uncle,

Indeed Cory will, and he seems like the kind who won't just put the degree on the wall, but will do good things with the education the degree represents.

Jeff,

I focused my response on the UK for the sake of brevity, but there are good schools outside the US and UK, some of which do offer distance learning formats. I hope I don't come across as merely critical. It sounds like you are seeking only the best, which is great, but the picture is far more complex than you state.

 

Re: accreditation

True enough. If you aren't interested in earning a doctoral degree and if your field has to do with agriculture, CSU Fresno is probably a stronger choice than the University of Chicago.

 

Re: Clarification on my previous post...

Jeff,

I guess you will need to look at those inferior Ball State degrees offered through DL. Such as the Ed.D. in educational administration: http://www.bsu.edu/distance/article/0,1917,18069~7660~3532,00.html

In addition, one does not need to defend an accredited degree from Nova or Nebraska or Ball State. Actually, you need to better defend your statements because they are certainly filled with bias concerning modern distance education.

You will also note that your own alma mater also offers many DL master degrees: http://www.bsu.edu/distance/degrees/

Maybe your own MA was done in this format or had a DL component.

John