Wyoming Schools have just applied for accreditation

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by louisnguyen27, Jul 7, 2006.

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  1. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Active Member

    This forum has generally been very supportive of CCU before and after accreditation. The only negatives I recall being pointed out in this forum regarding CCU was their substandard DBA program and the simple fact that they were unaccredited which significantly hurt the utility of all their degrees. Oh yea, and that they were listed by the ODA as unaccceptable. It turns out that they were evaluated as unacceptable in Oregon by the ODA based on a request from an Oregonian to have their CCU DBA evaluated by the ODA. CCU dropped their DBA for accreditation but I understand did not require very significant other changes.

    Bob Jones University is academically rigorous but a bad place to go to school for other reasons, at least in my opinion.

    What other habitually unaccredited schools have become accredited that you would like an opinion on?

    In my opinion it is a gross insult to CCU's reputation to place them in the same category as KWU. CCU was academically rigorous before applying for accreditation. KWU was playing diploma mill like games with life experience, admittance committee stories, and not listing graduation requirements right up to the point that they applied for accreditation.
     
  2. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Absolutely agree. While CCU had its issues with academic rigor very early on, nearly all accounts indicate that they worked continuously to improve the quality of their programs, and as far as I know, CCU was always considered one of the very best of the non-religious unaccredited programs.

    The awarding of DETC accreditation to K-W would not only devalue the work that CCU has done in bringing its program up to par, it would literally make a laughingstock of DETC and have a serious, long term effect on the value of DETC accreditation as a whole, I think.

    DETC did very serious damage to their credibility and reputation with the AICS/ACCIS mess. They did sensibly refuse approval of the fabulously unwonderful Chadwick University (another wonderful Clayton operation, along with AICS and the awful Clayton College of Natural Health) in spite of a mountain of paperwork from Chadwick.

    Mike Lambert has written to DegreeInfo on several occasions arguing that DETC is working to gain credibility and that it really isn't as awful as we have sometimes made it out to be. And DETC does seem to be making some inroads into greater acceptance of its degrees, and greater transferability with the regionals.

    Let's hope that DETC's desire for the fees that would be generated by accreditation of K-W doesn't color the objectivity of the review and result in the flushing down the toilet of all the work DETC has done to rehabilitate its image after the missteps it made some years ago.
     
  3. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Bingo. California Coast has always operated legally, ethically, and professionally in the State of California (i.e., California State Approved) to my knowledge (starting in 1994 and beyond). Plus, CCU offered quite a bit of educational value for the meager tuition even before DETC accreditation. They should not be mentioned in the same breath with that other school, which was "run out" of California and often served as line of demarcation between fraudulent schools and legitimate unaccredited schools. For example, that other school often served as the poster child of what was wrong with continuously-operated unaccredited schools...

    Dave
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2006
  4. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    Thanks guys. You answered my question. I did not intend to put CCU in the same class as K-W. I was just curious how others perceived degrees awarded from institutions before accreditation. It still bothers me that K-W has an administrative office in CA and doesn't offer its programs there and operates out of Wyoming. (???????) I do recall a discussion a long time ago about deceptions that CCU did when acquiring a name of a defunct regionally accredited school and a few other not so wonderful comments. However, most comments did not "mill" CCU but were not very supportive either, even though it was stated many times it was one of the better state approved schools. The majority of pre-accredited posts - did not highly recommend the school to inquirers and quite of few of the posters were searching out CV of universities' faculty with such degrees to file complaints to those schools about the CCU graduate.

    It is strictly up to employers what degrees from what schools they accept as valid. However, I don't think HR personnel should be discounting State Approved schools, i. e. CCU graduates, before accreditation based on personal opinion. That should be the decision of the Executive Board based on fair and equitable inquiry of particular schools. If schools such as those approved by State Authorities and the degrees earned at those schools meet eligibility to sit for licensure, i.e. psych, bar, etc. as those in CA, should be given fair consideration; to include those CCU graduates as well as the graduates of similar State Approved schools, prior to accreditation. I don't know what kind of axe Auditguy has to grind with CA State Approved schools, but it is evident that he has a "personal" dislike of these schools that is affecting professional judgment.
     
  5. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    Hi Robbie;
    Should have explained our situation a little better. We always had a policy requiring accredited degrees, but it was poorly worded. HR's verification process was to get transcripts and confirm the degree with the university. Neither of those obviously help on the accreditation issue.

    When I did a review I found CCU, Kennedy Western, Harrington, Rochville, Bienville degrees, etc in our applicant database. I researched each unaccredited university separately to come up with a recommendation.

    I did find CCU to have merit, which was my point. The others were terminated. The CCU degree holder did not suffer any adverse affects, just told that we should have caught it up front, we do not think there is anything wrong with it, it just does not meet our policy.
     
  6. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    Hey Auditguy

    Thanks for your feedback. I have another question. What's wrong with State Approved college degrees if the school(s) offer a quality program? I didn't intend any personal attack against you, but your posts have always been skewed anti-unaccredited regardless.

    I would also like to add that I don't think that K-W diplomas should be replaced with Warren National diplomas should the case arise. The replacement should be with a duplicate K-W diploma. I bet this will be a topic of concern with the DETC.

    Robbie
     
  7. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    Hey Auditguy

    Thanks for your feedback. I have another question. What's wrong with State Approved college degrees if the school(s) offer a quality program? I didn't intend any personal attack against you, but your posts have always been skewed anti-unaccredited regardless.

    I would also like to add that I don't think that K-W diplomas should be replaced with Warren National diplomas should the case arise. The replacement should be with a duplicate K-W diploma. I bet this will be a topic of concern with the DETC.

    Robbie
     
  8. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member

    The only way that either DETC or North Central should accredit Warren National is to start anew - any KW work should not be permitted to be converted.

    If the new Warren National is a legit institution, then OK, but the conversion from degree mill "work" to a legit degree is too much.

    Shawn
     
  9. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Can the old KW degrees be recycled to WN degrees, even if WN doesn't offer an equivalent program? If so, I can't believe that Northcentral will allow this and still accredit them.

    Dave
     
  10. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member

    Audit Guy posted the link to WN's website describing the conversion process earlier in this thread.

    Shawn
     
  11. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Yes, I read that page. I'm still wondering whether all the degrees currently offered by KW will be offered by WN...

    Dave
     
  12. PaulC

    PaulC Member

    I'm confused. Have they applied for DETC or NCA/RA?
     
  13. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    WN has applied for RA with NCA, but the KW name was reported in the original article noted above.

    Dave
     
  14. PaulC

    PaulC Member

    I read the article. My question was more a response to Chips commentary on KW's moved towards accreditation in the context of DETC. Chip was phrasing as though DETC was considering KW, but it looked like KW was looking at RA, not DETC. I was thinking that I did not read one thing or the other correctly.
     
  15. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    My bad. I probably misread someone's comments and assumed that K-W was applying for DETC.

    If they're applying to North Central Association, I should think it's very unlikely that they would have even a snowball's chance in hell of getting accreditation. NCA has historically been a lot more rigorous (and so far, consistently follows its own written guidelines, unlike DETC) so it just seems there's plenty of reasons to deny candidacy to K-W regardless of whether it's an old name or a new name.

    The entire application may simply be a scam to buy more time before K-W has to move to St. Kitts or some Indian reservation, as many other schools have done.
     
  16. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Active Member

    I'm not AuditGuy but my employer requires their engineers to have accredited Bachelor's degrees. Candidates with little experience would have to be graduates from first teier schools. Out of the last 15 new hires probably 10 of them have PhD's and other five probably have Master's. This is rather unusual though and reflects the personal opinion of our ex-director. Usually we hire a few PhD's and mostly Master's but probably more Bachelor's than PhD's. I've never heard of anyone being hired with an unaccredited degree. The reason I suspect is that most people consider unaccredited institutions to be diploma mills.
     
  17. AuditGuy

    AuditGuy Member

    Hi Robbie;

    Our executive committee set our guidelines on degrees, but from the discussion, the decision to require regionally accredited degrees was made as a safe-harbor against any potential issues in public relations, employee relations, and licensing issues.

    For public relations, if our CEO’s bio showed he had an unaccredited degree, we would have a very difficult time educating the public, clients, and business partners as to why it was okay.

    For employee relations, the minute we hired someone with an unaccredited degree over an accredited one, we suspect it would generate employee grievances.

    For licensing, unaccredited degrees do not qualify you for licensing in any of our positions that I know of.

    So really, the decision was based on potential negatives we could avoid. Even if we all agree that a good unaccredited school = RA, we’d still make the same decision based on the perceptions out there.



    From a personal point of view, anyone furthering their education should be commended. In my ideal world:

    1. All universities honestly categorize and describe their degrees, including the rigors involved and any potential pitfalls of use.
    2. Students understand the different options and make an informed decision.
    3. Employers understand the different classifications and make an informed decision on what they should require.

    Then let the buyers and sellers decide the value. I don’t have any problem with any degree, whether it is RA, NA, or UA, as long as both sides know the score.
     
  18. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member

    Audit Guy,

    Very well put.
     
  19. Robbie

    Robbie New Member

    Auditguy - I couldn't agree with you more. But, personally and professionally, I don't have a problem hiring an individual with an unaccredited degree, as long as it is from a reputable school, over one who has an accredited degree. Exceptions would be from unaccredited schools from States without any oversight, i.e. Mississippi. If a school's graduates are eligible to sit for any licensure boards (law, psychology, etc.) in the State that school is approved to offer degrees, then I wouldn't think there would be any problems and should not be any reasons for any problems.

    I know it is easier for companies to rely on agencies such as recognized accrediting agencies, but I have been involved first hand with individuals who have graduated from particular regionally accredited schools and I can't see for the life of me how these individuals "earned" a degree. The individuals I am referring to are from several different States including here in North Carolina. Could you image a professional legal document reading, "As of are us the team, recommend..." This come out of a LCSW evaluation. That is only one of hundreds of ????? she had written. And, she was not the only one. I have read educators, psychologist, physical therapist, and quality assurance officiers doing the same thing. It scares the heck out of me knowing individuals are getting degrees using such grammar. To me, they are buying a regionally accredited degree. I don't understand.

    But, anyway, I understand your point of view clearly now. Thanks again.

    Robbie
     

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