Why do people blame for-profit schools for their own poor decisions?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by jam937, Mar 21, 2014.

  1. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    Taxpayers foot the bill for people who can't repay their mortgages
    Consumers foot the bill for people who file bankruptcy

    While this is true, it ignores the fact that the for-profits have open enrollment. I know one for-profit where a third to a half of new students can't read or do math at the 8th grade level. Any school with this caliber of students would struggle with defaults. Should we require proficiency tests before providing government backed loans and grants? Should we tell these people tough luck?

    This is the part that matters most to me as a taxpayer. My opinion is that students must pay for their first year's worth of college credits before they become eligible for any type of student loans or grants. This could be at the community college, CLEP exams or any college. Maybe set max loan amounts based on their field of study and ability to repay the loans. Banks and credit card companies set limits based on people's earnings potential.

    Why should the schools have to take any risk? If you sell your house to someone taking out a government backed mortgage, should you have to shoulder some of the risk if your buyer defaults?
  2. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    My post and comparison was about a buyer making a decision to purchase a product from a set of competing products. My scenario is exactly what's happening in the real world of the education industry. You may say options 2, 3, and 4 are non-starters but they are choices students are making by the thousands every day.

    Your comparison is not something that is happening every day in the real world nor is it about a buyer deciding between competing products. Also, If the federal government backed auto loans then there would be a lot of dumb kids driving sports cars and a lot of cars being reposessed.

    I agree. I think all businesses (public, non-profit and private) should be based on a willing buyer paying for the product or service they are purchasing.
  3. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    I do not think Ms. Space is a good example of not taking responsibility for student debt.

    People were riled up years ago when she briefly appeared in the news for attempting to "crowdfund," asking for contributions online to pay down her student debt. She got something… but relative to the total debt, not much, at one late count about $12 000.

    At the same time she was also working 60-hour weeks and living at home, for which she was publicly grateful while acknowledging that this wasn't ideal ("I am lucky! But…"). In the years since she's continued to work to pay it off her debts with apparently, continuing success.

    I say bravo.

    Now, can we please not make a broad judgment of this private citizen based on an isolated quote or two from news stories from years ago?
  4. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    Ms. Space is an example of a student making a bad decision on the purchase of an educational product. Spending over $200,000 for a bachelor's degree in sociology is almost always a bad decision. Taking out loans for such a degree is even worse.

    I do congratulate her on sticking with it and she has already reduced her $200,000 debt to $140,000. Kudos to her!
  5. lawrenceq

    lawrenceq Member

    You think she'll try grad school after she pays off her debt? ;)
  6. FJD

    FJD Member

    I generally agree with you, but, as I have pointed out several times before when these discussions come up on this board, there are limits on federally-backed student loans for undergraduates. These limits do not approach the $100,00 figure in your example. Also, you are eligible for incrementally greater amounts the longer you are in school, which at least acts as an added check on new students who are just looking to take the loan proceeds and blow them. You have to make "satisfactory academic progress" (a low bar, but still) to keep your loan eligibility. Moreover, it it is difficult for a student under 24 to get classified as independent and thus access more funding. I know this because when I was an undergrad, I was in fact self-supporting but I was still denied independent status. It was probably a good thing because it kept me from getting too much in debt. I'm pretty sure my younger self would have taken the maximum available if I could. Instead, I made up the difference in cash earned through work. Here's a summary of the federal loans available, with aggregate limits listed at the bottom (not an official ed.gov source, but accurate as far as I can tell):
  7. RAM PhD

    RAM PhD Member

    There are numerous reasons students dropout of school. Is there any empirical evidence that shows the reason for high dropout rates is that students are being deceived and taken advantage of (i.e., no remedial courses, etc.)?
  8. Petedude

    Petedude New Member


    I hereby vote that we should distinguish "for-profit, privately held" schools from "for profit, publicly held schools" and that we should ask all posting about the evils of "for profit, publicly held schools" to distinguish these as such.

    Thank you for letting me throw in those two cents.
  9. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Why? Is there a difference in that distinction?
  10. Petedude

    Petedude New Member


    As mentioned elsewhere in this forum, it is the for-profit publicly held schools that are generating by far the vast majority of defaulted student loans and fail to ensure proper academic readiness of their students prior to enrollment. All that's even before we mention false (or exaggerative) advertising, overblown claims by salesmen ("admissions representatives"), etc.
  11. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I thought I'd post this here too just to make sure you see it.
    New figures suggest community college grad rates higher than thought | Hechinger Report
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    We have discussed this yet you cling to a pundit article that offer no relevant data to show any statistical relevance to your argument. I get that you WANT to see things a certain way, you just don't have any DATA to support the view you want. You have opinions, but we all have opinions.
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Um, did you even read the article? The American Association of Community Colleges tracked how many CC students go on to complete bachelor's degrees after completing at least 30 credits at the CC level. That is what the statistic is based on. Instead of 18%, the CC graduation rate would be closer to 40% if it included transfer students who eventually completed their bachelor's degrees. The National Student Clearinghouse also said that a quarter of CC students transfer to 4-year colleges. Out of those, 60% of them graduate with a bachelor's degree. You're just in continued denial because you've been proven wrong.

    The National Student Clearinghouse also said that graduation rates are obsolete given that a third of students transfer at least once in 5 years. Transfer students don't count towards a college's graduation rate. As a matter of fact, a huge chunk of students who transfer from 4-year colleges are transferring to community colleges. Because they are transfer students, they don't count toward the CC's graduation rate.
    A Third of Students Transfer Before Graduating - Students - The Chronicle of Higher Education
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    Na. I just don't buy that someone who finished their education some where else 5 years after dropping out of community college should get the community college off the hook for the drop out. It is cute that you think by restating your opinion that my opinion has been 'proven wrong' though. For the data here to work you have to buy into a lot of 'base assumptions' that are nonsense.
  15. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    If you don't buy 6-year outcomes, then you don't buy the official federal graduation rates because that is what they use. You can't have it both ways. If the federal government is giving those who start at 4-year colleges 6 years to graduate, then they would have to do the same with CC transfer students.
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    CC's generally offer 2 year degrees not 4, so huh? If my lunch at Burger Kings sucks so I go to McDonalds to finish lunch, it doesn't get Burger King off the hook for serving a crappy lunch even though half my lunch came from there. If you can't see that I can't help you.
  17. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Ed, are you going to keep ignoring the question I think three people have asked you directly, namely whether you have any evidence to support your claim that many CCs are deceptive in recruitment?

    You followed up with a statement that many CC students don't complete degrees. That shifts the goalpost to a whole other playing field. Disappointing outcomes among purchasers of a service do not prove that a service provider was deceptive.

    If the problem of deceptive recruiting by community colleges as widespread as you suggest, you should be able to provide more direct evidence of deceptive recruiting by community colleges.
  18. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    What? I will try to say it again in a way you can understand. If those who start at 4-year colleges are given 6 years to earn a bachelor's degree, then CC students have to also be given 6 years to earn a bachelor's degree. CC students have to earn the same number of credits toward a bachelor's degree as all other students.

    Your analogy is just dumb. No one eats at one restaurant to transfer calories to another restaurant in order to complete a whole meal. If they do, there's a chance it has nothing to do with the quality of the first restaurant. They are just getting some items from one restaurant and others at another restaurant.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2014
  19. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Ed, CC students are very often working adults who study part-time. If you're taking a half-time course load, your parity time to complete a bachelor's degree that takes four years on a traditional full-time course load should be eight years. If you completed on an approximately half-time course load in twelve years, you'd still have established parity with an approximately FT-course-load traditional student completing in six years.

    And many CC students take less than even a half-time load.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2014
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    So someone who completes 27 semester-hours and then drops out doesn't count as a drop out? Because to be fair, that's actually an awful lot of credit. What percent of total community college students does that represent?

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