Why do people blame for-profit schools for their own poor decisions?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by jam937, Mar 21, 2014.

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  1. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    So many people blame the for-profit schools for their own poor decision making. I personally don't think schools are defrauding or scamming people, but they are relying on people not to be informed consumers.

    Almost everything in life is buyer beware. Schools are no different. A school salesperson is no different from any other salesperson. They get paid to sell you a product and they push you hard to buy it.

    Whatever happened to a buyers responsibility? What ever happened to doing due diligence?


    • Before I hire a plumber I check reviews, references, better business bureau, state licensing, etc.
    • Before I buy a car I check reviews, references, car fax, hire a mechanic, etc.
    • Before I buy a house I hire a realtor, get an appraisal, get inspections, read the contract, hire lawyer, etc.
    • Before I spend or commit to spending money I make sure I know the cost.

    Am I alone in being an informed buyer? Am I the abnormal one? (<- don't answer that)

    I have spoken to some of my students who had no idea how much it was costing them to go to school. They don't even open their financial statements. They have no idea of their future job market. They have no idea how long it would take them to repay student loans. Most never even shopped around. They have never visited their local community college which has the same course, at night, for a fraction of the cost. They've never research other online schools that are a fraction of the cost. Most don't know the difference between national and regional accreditation.

    End of rant
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    I don't think it is that simple. Many FP schools are deceptive in recruiting and target folks who might not be equipped for the products, so are many CC's but they get a pass for some reason. However that said, I think the industry is painted with a pretty broad brush and is over simplified. If you were to read comments here you would think there are only three schools in the whole world, a school called DETC, one called RA, and one called The Big Three. In fact there are 7000+ and I am sure each one is pretty different with good points and less-than-good points.
     
  3. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Do you have any source or evidence for the claim that "many CC's" "are deceptive in recruiting?"

    I agree that any open-admissions program is by definition open to people who might not be equipped for the program, so there's a point there, though saying that such programs at CCs "target" such students seems unnecessarily loaded.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2014
  4. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Most CCs require placement testing while most for-profits do not. Just about every CC offers remedial courses while most for-profits do not. For those who qualify for the Pell Grant, it's enough to cover the dirt cheap tuition rates at CCs. Even if one does not qualify for a grant, CC tuition will not leave you deep in debt. CC students go deep into debt by taking out the max in loans to cover living expenses. At most for-profits, going into debt is often the only viable option. Even the payment plans are debts to the school.

    I have come across people with serious learning disabilities at for-profits. It is unethical to take advantage of these people and dump them right into college-level coursework.
     
  5. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I don't know about others, but at the only for profit I ever worked, it required placement testing and it had remedial courses. I think that part of the problem for some schools is that federal financial aid doesn't cover remedial coursework, which gives for profits a perverse incentive to minimize it since their students can't afford it out of pocket.

    In a free market, I don't think for profits would be able to charge anything near what they do under Title IV, and I don't think they'd have the same incentive to discourage remedial coursework.
     
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Are schools really "no different" ?

    Let's suppose a 20-year old kid with below-average intelligence and a low-paying job wants to borrow $100,000 so he can get a sports car, or a boat, or a condo.

    Do you think anyone would lend him the money ?

    ****

    True story: when I was in college, I had a friend who loved fast cars. We happened to be in a city that had a Ferrari dealer, and my friend absolutely had to check it out. So we went to the dealership, and spent maybe an hour drooling over the cars.

    The staff glanced at us through their office windows, sized us up instantly as dumb kids, and didn't even bother to come out or speak to us. It was the first and only time that I have ever been completely ignored by salesmen at an auto dealership. Nobody pushed us to buy a Ferrari, because they knew perfectly well that we couldn't afford one.

    In the Real World, nobody expects to sell very expensive products to dumb kids. But for-profit education isn't the Real World. The for-profit schools work extremely hard to sell very expensive education to dumb kids -- because they know that those dumb kids have a rich Uncle Sam.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2014
  7. lawrenceq

    lawrenceq Member

    I noticed on my end people too lazy to do their homework. They go with the first thing they find. Then once they noticed they got the short end of the stick, they blame everybody else.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards Member

    Yes very high dropout rates.
     
  9. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Do you have any source or evidence to support the premise that deceptive recruiting by CCs is a major cause of CC student attrition?

    Also, remember challenges in comparing completion rates including those discussed elsewhere on this board, and here (under "What percentage of community college students obtain a college credential?").
     
  10. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    well another huge difference between FP and CC is the cost. Trying a semester of CC and discovering you don't want to or cannot hack it is likely to end with you owing little or nothing other than time spent. That same semester at the typical FP could see you several thousand dollars in debt (stayer, UoP, etc...). So even if the drop out rate is similar your still not talking apples to apples.

    With that said, I still think the responsibility lies with the student not the school. The predatory style of some FP's is a huge turn off to me, but the buyer should be educating themselves...novel idea at the college level right?

    I think I will always have a very negative bias against UofP, a degree from there...to me...screams a lack of the student ability to properly assess their options and make good choices.
     
  11. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    People just find the way to blame for anything, as long as not their own faults. For example, Kelli Space owned $200,000.00 for a Bachelor degree in Sociology at Northeastern University. She blamed that she was the first generation in her family attend college. Apparently, she took the money out for study abroad.
     
  12. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Please tell us what these deceptive practices entail based on your firsthand experience, someone you know, or research.
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    That webpage has good information.

    Yep, community colleges are being deceptive about college readiness by making applicants take placement tests and forcing them to take remedial courses. You know, they have all of these shareholders to satisfy. They are ripping students off charging them $40-80 per credit hour. I inquired once at a community college, and they're still calling me 3 years later. And, their commercials are always on during Maury, Judge Judy, and Jerry Springer. The worst thing is that they lied about there being articulation agreements with in-state universities. Hardly anyone will accept my credits!
     
  14. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Not get too far afield, but the assumption here seems to be that all shareholders want the short term gains that can come from screwing people rather than the long term gains that can come from providing a decent product and good service at a fair price and enjoying a multiplier effect from the resulting good reputation. I don't think that's the case.

    Although, this sort of tracks the trend of publicly-traded companies as a category. I've worked for a family-owned for profit and it simply didn't show the same rapacious behavior that's often ascribed to the sector, in fact a few years ago the family converted the school to being non-profit. Tony's reported similar socially responsible behavior at Sullivan University, another closely held for profit university. Perhaps if one has to categorize schools, it's whether they are publicly traded that should be considered a red flag rather than whether they are simply for profit.
     
  15. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    This makes my point:
    The student is making the choice to attend a community college or a for-proft.
    The student is making a decision to take out loans or work their way through college.
    The student is making the decision to use loans for tuition or tuition and living expenses.
    Nobody is forcing them to make a decision.
     
  16. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Yes, there are shareholders that want long-term gains. Yes, several of the publicly-traded for-profits haven't been doing well lately. But, some people are acting as if community college employees are rolling in dough. Maybe there are a few administrators who make 6-figure salaries, but who do CCs have to monetarily satisfy? They are subsidized by state and local taxes.

    I must say that even though I have a masters degree, I feel like a loser for not graduating from community college. I'm missing out on so many job opportunities by not having my AA. Just to think that they took $2,000 out of my $5,000 Pell Grant. So sad.
     
  17. jam937

    jam937 New Member

    That's a totally different comparison. Here's a fair comparison:

    Let's suppose the 20 year old did qualify for a loan and the kid's choices were:
    1. Save money for 3-4 years to pay cash for a sports car
    2. Borrow $40,000 for a similiar sports car by another manufacturer
    3. Borrow $100,000 for the sports car
    4. Borrow $150,000 for the sports car and 3 years living expenses

    My choice would be option 1. Your choice might be option 2. Maybe the kid chooses option 4. You and I might cringe at the thought of option 4.

    We all have the same opportunity to research, plan and think before we act. Granted some are smarter then others. Some people do no research and make impulse decisions. When you make a decision you are taking responsibility for the outcome.
     
  18. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I agree. A lot of people end up at expensive for-profits because they didn't do their research. Just about all of my students are like this. They look shocked when I tell them our local community colleges charge $2,000 per year. They could have easily found this out by going to their websites, but they didn't. Instead, they saw our college's commercial during Maury and called us up. They told me that our college's salespeople...I mean admissions representatives wouldn't stop calling them. Now, they are paying $19,000 for a certificate when an associates at the local CCs would have cost $4,000. All but one of my students qualified for a full Pell Grant award. Yes, there are also students at CCs who irresponsibly take out way more in student loans than they need, but one person on this forum acts like CCs are benefiting from this. The CCs take enough to cover their tuition and fees; the rest goes back to the student in a refund check.

    I still feel sorry for those with disabilities who are taken advantage of. You're making the assumption that everyone is capable of making important life decisions.
     
  19. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    All true statements, but there are a few more true statements that could be added as well:

    - The taxpayer foots the bill if the student can't repay his loans.
    - For-profit schools have 13% of the enrollment, but 46% of the defaults.

    It would be one thing if the student was the only party to pay a price for his bad decisions.
    But in reality, those bad decisions affect everyone who pays taxes.

    On the other hand, the school assumes no risk whatsoever.
    They get paid up front, even if the student ultimately defaults.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2014
  20. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    No. The point is that Options 2, 3, and 4 are non-starters. They don't exist. No bank will loan tens of thousands of dollars -- much less hundreds of thousands of dollars -- to a kid with a minimum-wage job.

    Why not? Because he might not pay it back, and the bank would lose money. Obviously.

    So your initial supposition -- "Let's suppose the 20 year old did qualify for a loan" is flawed.
    I don't accept that supposition. My scenario is in the Real World.

    In the Real World, the kid's only choice is Option 1. And no one really has any problem with Option 1. If the kid uses his own money to buy a sports car, then crashes it and loses his investment, it sucks -- but nobody else gets financially hurt.

    In Education World, the kid has an additional Option: use student loans which are backed by rich Uncle Sam. That's why the kid can (easily) get a $100,000 student loan, but not a $100,000 car loan. And that's also why other people -- not just the student -- take a financial hit if things go south. And that's why other people are concerned.

    I would have zero problem with for-profit schools, if their business model was based on Option 1: students paying with their own money. However, the for-profit education sector would shut down in about 90 seconds if that was the only option.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2014

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