Which accreditation is "better"?

Discussion in 'Accreditation Discussions (RA, DETC, state approva' started by Randell1234, Dec 7, 2005.

  1. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Doctoral students are normally required to articulate the language with more accuracy. Please note.

    That said, what a very diplomatic response to a mild rebuke! That's a skill we could all use. Good luck with your Breyer program.
  2. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Le(a)rner's point about DETC and ACE is relevant. But I believe that any offerer of courses, academic or corporate or government, can choose to have them evaluated by ACE; it's not just a DETC thing.

    Bill Dayson wonders about "...several foreign universities who have sought DETC accreditation for reasons that I can't entirely fathom..."

    During the time I was doing marketing for the University of Leicester's MA programs in training and HR, they successfully pursued DETC accreditation for the sole reason that it would then qualify them to offer courses to US servicemen and women under a special arrangement then in effect between DANTES and DETC.

    I still remain really confused as to how DETC, which by its mandate can only accredit entire schools and not departments within them, went ahead and accredited just the Centre for Labour Market Studies at the University of Leicester.
  3. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    I have reported here before the events that occurred at Armstrong University (or College) in Berkeley, which had been WASC accredited. My wife's situation was perhaps the final nail in their RA coffin. She failed seven or eight students in the course she was teaching when none showed up for the final exam; most had turned in no papers. She was ordered by the Dean to give them all A's, since they were all from "important" families back home in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. She refused, quit, and notified WASC.

    On the day WASC terminated Armstrong's accreditation, they became fully accredited by ACICS.
  4. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator Staff Member

    So if I want a degree without any work I should goto Armstrong?? :D
  5. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    Dr Bear thanks foor pointing out that there was something in my post after all.

    Greg I'm really surprised by your reply, RA is the gold standard
    but RA + PA is the Platinum standard and I proved that in my other posts. Since we are comparing accreditation agencies
    maybe you can tell the readers why there is a need for professional accreditation if RA is sufficient why not close all the ABET's, APA'S, ABA'S etc.

    The truth is and this is not an attack on RA is that RA is not sufficient when it comes to professional degrees, this is why
    PA is added to adjust the programs to the required level.

    We don't need DETC or ACICS, we have RA system and that's should do it.

    Are there multiple Greggs?


  6. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Randell1234: So if I want a degree without any work I should go to Armstrong?

    John: As I once heard someone in admissions say at Armstrong, smirkingly, you are most welcome if your last name has either one syllable or four. (Armstrong went from something less than 5% Asian-based students in the 1950s to more than 95% in the 1990s.) It was bought from the Armstrong family by its dean, Ron Hooks, who then sold it to an Asian group.

    Incidentally, one of the behaviors that WASC pointed out at Armstrong when they were put on probation was their advertising in Asia that said something like, "Come to University in Berkeley," which led to more than a few English-challenged scholars to believe they were coming to that other university in Berkeley.

    Incidentally #2, the president of Armstrong at the time they went on probation (and had to change from Armstrong University to Armstrong College) and then llost their regional accreditation was Franklin Burroughs, later to surface as a Vice President of the dreadful World Association of Universities and Colleges and then founder of the equally dreadful Nobel University, apparently run from his California home. Nobel's accreditation is/was claimed from the perhaps even more dreadful International Association of Universities and Colleges, whose domain name was registered to the same address as the phony Adam Smith University's mailbox campus in South Dakota.

    So how, one asks, did this man become president of a regionally accredited university? He does have an earned doctorate from the University of Southern California, if I remember correctly, but beyond that, a mystery to me.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2005
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Looks like ACICS lost patience with them and dumped them as well. Today Armstrong looks like a struggling low-end CA-approved business school that's surviving by selling BBAs and MBAs to foreign students. (Some of whom might be more interested in getting a student visa than in getting an education.)


    There's another university in Berkeley? :D
  8. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It's probably of no interest to anyone but me, but I just found out that an apartment building in SF that I lived in 20 years ago has been absorbed into the Borg-like Academy of Art University collective. Now it's the Leonardo di Vinci Apartments and used to house artists.

    It seems that the hive is buying up apartment buildings all over the city:

    Fritz Lang Apartments at 560 Powell Street

    Mary Cassatt Co-ed Dormitory at 2209 Van Ness Avenue

    Coco Chanel Women's Dormitoryat 1916 Octavia Street

    Edgar Degas Apartments at 680 Sutter Street

    John Singer Sargent Graduate Apartments at 1900 Jackson Street

    Vermeer Apartments at 736 Jones Street

    Auguste Rodin Men's Dormitory at 1055 Pine Street

    Leonardo Da Vinci Apartments at 1080 Bush Street

    Frank Lloyd Wright Men's Dormitoryat 1153 Bush Street

    Howard Brodie Women's Dormitory at 655 Sutter Street

    Academy International House at 860 Sutter

    Add that to three art galleries, animation studios, model shops, computer labs... Wherever you go in San Francisco these days, there's always going to be that baleful red Academy of Arts AA logo staring at you.

    Resistance is futile.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2005
  9. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Bill: There's another university in Berkeley?

    John: I was referring, of course, to the one I pass by nearly every day, Andrew University (www.andrewuniversity.edu)

    (The University of Berkeley, located two blocks from the campus of some other big local school, seems to have faded away.)

    PS: Andrew University's site says they are "fully accredited by the state of California." This is a major no-no (or, as Andrew might put it, a ? ?) (Does DegreeInfo support Chinese characters? I'll soon find out.)

    PS2: Perhaps uncle janko, or Uncle Jimmy or others can explain to me the concept of "centrality of cultural indigenization" (also from the Andrew site; a Google search for that phrase found precisely one instance: the Andrew site).
  10. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    No one said there was nothing in your post. I take issue with the whole RA + PA thing, as I couldn't have made more clear in my posting with which you are taking issue.

    It's apples to oranges. PA has very narrow applicability. When it's called-for, it's wonderful, but when it's not it has no purpose. More is not always better.

    Remember that accreditation is not to encourage institutions to set the bar higher, as you seem to think PA does to RA institutions. How high to set the bar is up to the institution... and is the reason why Harvard or Yale are head-and-shoulders above Calumet Colege... all three of them regionally accredited. A given institution is free to set the bar as high as it likes... and where that is has nothing to do with accreditation.

    Accreditation is to ensure that the institution doesn't set the bar too low; that there will be a point of quality below which the accredited institution will not sink... else there will be consequences. Adding PA to RA does not suddenly create this new platinum class of accreditation. Neither PA or RA+PA is inherently "better" than RA alone. A car does not become "better" because you put snow tires on it. You put snow tires on it because the weather conditions call for it. The snow tires have narrow and specific purpose that has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the car riding upon them.

    PA is called for when the minimum standards of RA don't specifically address the very narrow, industry/profession-specific requirements of a licensor or certifier; and the certifier/licensor needs a way of dispensing with having to assess the quality of every credential presented to it in support of the license or certification. This is the very essence of accreditation... one of its most noble purposes: To save those looking upon a degree from having to go figure out if it provided adequate rigor, and both breadth and depth of subject coverage. Accreditation ensures that it was adequate... and, therefore, saves everyone a lot of time.

    You seem to think that accreditation is the thing that makes a school great; and that if regional accrediation is good, then specialized/professional accreditation has to be better. That's just folly. Accreditation's not the thing that makes a school good. It's the thing that keeps it from being bad. There's a helluva difference.

    No, you didn't; and I've been waiting for someone around here to set you straight and to put an end to your good "RA+PA is better" ride-while-it-lasted. So now I'm doing it.

    But we're not! You are. While it's actually possible to compare the regional accreditors to one another; or any given regional accreditor to either a national accreditor or all national accreditors; or all regional accreditors to all national accreditors... while it's actually possible to do those things, it's not really possible to compare any of those -- or all of them collectively -- to specialized/professional accreditors. That's like comparing the car to its snow tires. It's apples-to-oranges. You don't seem to grasp that... which is not intended as a slight or insult toward you. I mean, look... I can see (or at least I hope it's true) that your heart's in the right place. But you've got wrong how it all works. I'm not trying to insult you or shoot you down. I'm trying to correct you, so you'll stop misleading the reader. I'm hoping for enlightenment to flow over you like a warm blanket on a cold winter night. I can see what you wish were true, and why... but I'm trying to help you understand that it doesn't work that way. If I used what felt to you like a harsh tone in my earlier post, I'm sorry. I'm just done with the "RA+PA or No Way" sort of argument; and I'm a little worried that maybe you're doing it because you want those whom you perceive to have always been screaming "RA or No Way" to know what it feels like... that suspicion based on my longtime belief that you're nowhere as dense as you'd have us believe; and that you are, in fact, quite capable of the long con.

    Because sometimes it snows. See above.

    No argument there. But you don't include all that when you make silly statements like... wait... I gotta' go look at your second post in this thread to see how you worded it... be right back...

    [seconds pass]

    ...you don't include all that when you write silly things like, "Following RA+PA and RA the next on the scale is DETC." That's just a ridiculous statement... on its face!

    "RA+PA" is not some new form or class of accreditation... except maybe in Lernerville. PA isn't even applicable to the vast majority of degrees out there in the universe. PA does not make an RA degree better. It merely ensures that an RA degree which is intended for use in certain industries/professions, or which is proffered in support of licensure or certification, meets all the minimum standards that those industries, professions, certifiers and/or licensors require. If those entities are not in the picture, PA is like, as my father used to say, tits on a bull. If RA is the car, PA is the snow tires... or the tire chains. Snow tires or tire chains make a car more effective under a narrow set of circumstances. PA makes an RA degree more effective, and ensures that its focus is appropriate to the task, under a narrow set of circumstances.

    PA does not beautify or even fortify RA. They're as different as night and day... or cars and snow tires.

    And DETC does not represent the entire class of national accreditation. Didn't you have to do those categorization puzzles in grade school like the rest of us? DETC is a component member of the class or group "national accreditation." You cannot compare classes or groups with the component parts of other classes or groups. This is a conversation -- yet another in a seemingly endless string of them around here -- about regional accreditation versus national accreditation. Specialized/professional accreditation can't really be compared with either... in the same way that the snow tire can't be compared with the car whose performance it enhances when it's installed properly thereon... and even then, only when it's snowing.

    I never said that... or anything like it. That's you taking your misunderstanding of the issues to their illogical and inapplicable extreme.

    Look, Lerner. Stop taking it so personally. I'm not upset with you; I'm upset with what you've been saying. You get attacked so much around here that you've stopped paying attention to what's getting attacked. Maybe it's all starting to feel the same to you. This isn't another "Lerner's bad" diatribe on my part. I'm just debating your position. Please take a giant step back from your feeling personally attacked, and recognized that it's your position that I'm attacking... and with everything I've got. I'm trying to obliterate your position, and leave you, personally, standing. That's how debate in a place like this is supposed to work. Take a deep breath, stop being surprosed by my reply, and start trying to get your mind wrapped around what I'm saying about what you've been saying.

    My issue's with that, not you. Even when I was talking about how some of what you were saying felt more like something that DI's enemies would be espousing, I was talking about the espousement, not the espouser.

    My fear, of coures, is that you are still not going to completely grasp what I'm saying -- or, if you do, that you just won't agree, to save your life -- and this will have no end. Let's not let that sort of thing happen, okay?

    ADDENDUM/EDIT: When PA stands alone -- not atop RA... like, for example, a law school that's ABA-approved, but not regionally-accredited; or a seminary that's ATS accredited, but not also regionally-accredited -- I suppose it's possible to compare PA and RA on some levels. But, even that is a highly circumstantial, narrowly-focused scenario... and, in any case, it does not become foundation for creating a super class of accreditation by combining RA+PA. Such a class simply doesn't exist. It's not at the left end of a RA+PA then RA then NA continuum. It's an unsound and illogical concept.

    Oy. :rolleyes: I'm tired of this already.
  11. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    John, I think it means they only want non-Anglophone Asian students.

    Gregg, 'at dog woan't hunt.
  12. tesch

    tesch New Member

    It seems that the most challenging aspect of the coursework and curriculum at BSU is the effort and process of writing a check. BSU is a clearly a mill in basically every aspect. Review the following link:


    Your claim that you are self employed does not minimize the concern or affect of obtaining a bogus degree from BSU. Will you NOT claim, use or present in any form your degree from BSU at all, or will you use your bogus/worthless BSU degree to deceive your customers instead of an employer? Perhaps the degree is intended for personal or social esteem and recognition?

    Regardless of their intended use, bogus or worthless degrees and schools exist for one main purpose, and that is to deceive others -- period. Whether the intended target is an employer, customers, associates, friends or even one's self, it still results in the unfortunate situation of deception.

    Really, this is a shame to see.

  13. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    Dr. Bear, my sincerest respect to your wife. She has more integrity in her pinky finger than most people in their entire bodies.

    I am not 100% certain that the above quote is the case. However, in my opinion the DETC does have a stricter set of standards for accreditation than ACICS. Here in Puerto Rico ACICS accredits some of the worse proprietary schools I ever seen. Furthermore, at least in three (3) instances I am aware of there have been indictments against the proprietors of ACICS schools here for financial aid fraud. One of them went as far as to register inexistent students at his school to collect the financial aid. I am not aware of any similar situations at DETC accredited institutions.

    Therefore, even if I don't know which agency enjoys higher recognition, I feel that the DETC does have more credibility.
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    wile I'm also tired of this the message is important.
    most of the people surrounding me have degrees that have accreditation of appropriate Professional Accreditor ot to elevate the bar but too bring the program at RA university in to standard that is dictated by the industry and not only academy.

    Thas all I'm saying.
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Perhaps DETC chose to define the institution it accredited that way, treating the CLMS as a separate entity?
  16. back2cali

    back2cali New Member

    I am putting alot of time into this State-approved university and yes, I will be proud to call myself Dr. when I finally complete my dissertation, coursework and educational objectives.

    I was asked as to my previous education level. I completed my BS and MA at Auburn over 25 years ago and this doctorate is both for professional and educational enrichment. I find the program both challenging and of a high caliber.

    Best of wishes to you all.
  17. miguelstefan

    miguelstefan New Member

    If you are happy with B.S.U. more power to you. Just don't come back next year crying and whining and asking for help about suing the school like others have done because they are not happy with the choices they made. You had ample warning about B.S.U. and you decided out of your own free will to spend your money on a "piece of printed paper" from them.

    By the way, you can call yourself doctor all you want as long as you don't expect me to do the same.
  18. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    John wrote:
    I still remain really confused as to how DETC, which by its mandate can only accredit entire schools and not departments within them, went ahead and accredited just the Centre for Labour Market Studies at the University of Leicester.

    Rich replied:
    Perhaps DETC chose to define the institution it accredited that way, treating the CLMS as a separate entity?

    John responds:
    Then we move to Problem Two: CLMS also offers the Ph.D. degree, and DETC couldn't (and can't) accredit institutions or entities that offer Ph.D. degrees.
  19. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    asked as to, or, in English, asked about

    I don't think anybody should be allowed to call himself doctor who thinks that "alot" is one word. And Miguel really is a chün-tzu for catching the illiteracy (not a typo, not even close) and fixing it in his quote.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2005
  20. Jake_A

    Jake_A New Member



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