Wherefore thou DL Physician Assistant programs?

Am I missing something? Why is it so hard to find DL Physician Assistant programs? I'm currently undertaking a DL Nurse Practitioner program which IMO is a step above the PA. The PA doesn't have the autonomy of a NP (in general). So am I just not looking in the right places or are there no DL PA programs to be found?

 

Let's see what happens if we do a search at www.google.com .

 

University of Nebraska Medical Center

http://www.unmc.edu/dept/alliedhealth/pa/index.cfm?L2_ID=24&L1_ID=9&CONREF=9

 

Re: Re: Wherefore thou DL Physician Assistant programs?

And what we seem to be getting from that google search is:

Arizona School of Health Sciences www.ashs.edu
Birla Institute of Technology and Science www.bits-pilani.ac.in
Emory University www.emory.edu
George Washington University www.gwu.edu
Lock Haven University www.lhup.edu
University of Nebraska Medical Center www.unmc.edu
Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science www.rosalindfranklin.edu
St. Louis University www.slu.edu

 

Re: Re: Re: Wherefore thou DL Physician Assistant programs?

Hi,

I believe all the above programs are for praciticing P.A.'s looking to obtain a Master's degree online. I don't believe that there is DL Physician's Assistant program available to those without a P.A. license. If so, I haven't found one yet!

- Tom

 

japhy - you are correct. I have been looking for a master's program for non-PAs, but have been unsuccessful. It would make sense to have a BA/BS to PA via DL especially when there are more than enough of BA/BS to MSN programs.

 

Emory PA

I researched this not long ago. I was looking for a medical education that did NOT require all the work of a regular M.D. Emory DOES have a PA program, but not online. The PA program online is for the Master's level student who already has a lower dergee - just like japhy4529 says.

CCBapt

 

Depending upon where they practice and what their specialty is, mid-level providers (nurse practitioners, physician assistants, nurse anesthetists and nurse midwives) do about 70-80% of what a physician does. Particularly in some primary-care specialties, mid-level providers do almost as much as physicians.

And with all due respect to the original poster, I am unaware of any peer-reviewed literature, not written by one mid-level provider association or the other, that establishes that nurse practitioners provide a more competent level of care than a physician assistant or vice versa. There can be differences in autonomy of practice, but that is a state licensing issue, not a competency issue.

Many nurse practitioners like to think of themselves as 'better', since they all have a nursing degree, and the NP programs confer a MS in nursing. Many PA programs have different admission requirements or do not grant a master's degree. But again, in terms of patient clinical outcome, which should be the major criteria, I don't know of any objective substantial difference between NPs and PAs.

In my large clinic of 230 physicians, and 40 mid-level providers, the NPs, PAs, and CRNAs are all on an equal footing and are paid according to market. And the market is that the highest-paid mid-level providers are the nurse anesthetists (CRNAs). In terms of clinical competency, we have had very good experience with those PAs who were first military medical personnel (medics, corpsmen, independent duty corpsmen) who then went on to complete a PA program. Their patient care experience in the military is very useful to them, since they were already operating as physician extenders to one degree or another.

The difficulty with a DL mid-level provider training program would be how to accomplish integrating the clinical skill sections with the didactic training. Much of the didactic would lend itself to DL, but the clinical skill sections would not. There was a DL PA program that did the didactic online, and the individual student, with the assistance of the school, arranged for clinical externships with various hospitals and clinics. I think that program was in one of the Carolinas, and I am not sure that they are still in business, at least with that teaching model.

The most interesting mid-level provider I ever met was when I was giving a lecture to a national convention of nurse anesthetists. I am a malpractice expert and lecture frequently on this. I met a nurse anesthetist in the Navy, a lieutenant-commander. He was formerly a lieutenant with Seal Team Six, the anti-terrorism special forces team. He was injured badly, and retrained himself by going first to nursing school and then to CRNA school, all on active duty. Probably the only nurse anesthetist I ever met who could kill you six ways from Sunday, and then intubate you and provide the anesthesia while the surgeons brought you back from the dead!

 

Hmmm... I never said anything about the NP being better than or more competent than a PA. I said that the NP was a step above because there is autonomy whereas the PA doesn't have the same level of independence in practice. This is just from observation on friends in the various fields. My original post didn't go into the fact that I would almost prefer a PA degree (via DL) because they can enter areas that a traditional NP wouldn't such as surgery - an interest of mine.

What I'm wondering is if the NP degree can be administered via DL with didactic online and clinicals in the local area, why can't the PA degree do the same? A school could even require the student to attend B&M check-offs once a semester as some NP schools do. I chose the nursing route over PA because nursing offers accelerated programs (which I did) and online advanced practice degrees. Heck, there are even accelerated degrees straight to MSN online. PA schools would do well to expand their education to DL to release more providers into the health care system.

 

FYI, not necessarily. You are correct that there are a number of states in which the licensing laws provide NPs more autonomy, and even the capability of opening their own independent practice. You or your friends may be in one of those states. Washington is one of those states. However, there are also a number of states in which the licensing laws do not provide NPs more autonomy, and all mid-level providers have to practice under the supervision, oversight or employ of a physician.

Not to mention that if any mid-level provider ends up working for a large medical practice (I am an administrator for such a practice), their internal personnel policies or their malpractice insurer may decree a certain degree of supervision or oversight of any mid-level provider, regardless of their autonomy by licensure.

We have a number of NPs at work, they do a fine job, and their charting is usually much better than the physicians! Go figure.

 

DL Physician Assistant programs

hikergirl/ Michael Lloyd -

How NEW is the PA program from a B&M standpoint?

It may be me, but it seems I have just heard of this. If so, it could be a normal reaction of market forces coming from Baby Boomers and primary care physicians trying to catch up.

If it is new, there is reason to take care here. However, this is like ALL M.D. dergees only being B&M (Oceania Medical being the exception- yikes!!!!).

On the other hand, there are programs now developing for post doc Psychologists to prescribe medication - some of which are online.

I love the idea PERSONALLY and wish there was a DL program for it (with didactic online). The only B&M close to me is Emory in Atlanta. You talk about tough to get into! And, like med school, for Emory - you eat, live, breath PA- at least until you are done and THEN you can get a Masters in PA via DL.



CCBapt

 

I thought Emory's PA program was also a master's program.

 

distance learning

a few of the offshore medical schools are claiming their students can do their basic science via the internet. In the absence of any scientific evidence based studies I oppose it because part of medical education, whether MD or PA, would be the opportunity for professors to screen out those who shouldn't be in the professions.

NP programs require close supervision of the students,under their standards, but I've seen no research that shows the difference in discipline rates,etc. of those who did distance vs traditional classroom on NP. That would be interesting.

 

distance learning

a few of the offshore medical schools are claiming their students can do their basic science via the internet. In the absence of any scientific evidence based studies I oppose it because part of medical education, whether MD or PA, would be the opportunity for professors to screen out those who shouldn't be in the professions.

NP programs require close supervision of the students,under their standards, but I've seen no research that shows the difference in discipline rates,etc. of those who did distance vs traditional classroom on NP. That would be interesting.

 

CCBapt, the very first physician assistant training program began in 1967, at Duke University. The PA programs were originally geared towards former military medical personnel, and to this day, many PA students, more so than NP students, have a military medical or civilian emergency medical services background.

There are now many PA training programs all across the country. The acceptance and utilization of mid-level providers varies from place to place.

 

not a DL program, but UAB, University of Alabama at Birmingham, has a PA program that specializes in surgery. I think this is one advantage a PA has over an NP. As far as I know, NP's don't have the experience or training to assist in surgery.

http://main.uab.edu/show.asp?durki=34155

Senior Year Clinical Service Rotations
Required
Cardiovascular Surgery
Emergency Medicine
General Surgery
Inpatient Medicine
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Outpatient Medicine
Orthopedics
Pediatrics

Elective
Neurosurgery
Outpatient Surgery Clinic
Plastic Surgery
Renal Transplantation
Surgical Oncology
Thoracic Surgery
Trauma Surgery
Urology

 

Emory PA Revistited

anthonym - I stand corrected - THANKS!

hikergirl - check out Emory's PA Program.

Emory PA

Look at the bottom of the page. It seems Emory DOES offer a Masters of Medical Science Degree that can be completed two ways -

" Two Learning Options
* Part-time, two year distance-based.
* Full-time campus based (3/4 length semester) with part-time
distance-based completion of Program."

The catch is you have to have a Bachelors in PA.

Emory's site -

"Applicants to the degree Program should have successfully graduated from an accredited PA Program with a Bachelors degree, should have a minimum of two years of patient care experience, and should hold current NCCPA certification. Graduates of the Emory PA Program are particularly encouraged to apply."

In a sense - you have to BE a PA before you can get the Masters in PA!!

CCBapt

 

Mountain State University doesnt offer their PA program via distance learning. However, one can complete most of the Prerequisites via distance learning. Maybe these classes can be used as an admission stepping stone for a B&M PA program? Also at Mountain State, one doesnt need a bachelors degree to enter in their M.S.P.A. program. They require 66 units in undergraduate prerequitsites. Upon graduating from the PA program, one is a awarded a bachelors degree in medical science and an MSPA. However, the bachelors in medical alone doesnt qualify one to practice as a PA. Details are below:

http://www.mountainstate.edu/majors/onlinecatalogs/graduate/programs/PhysiciansAssistant.aspx

 

Although it is not DL, probably the fastest program I know of to become a PA is offered through George Washington University. If I recall correctly, it only takes about a year. They also have more conventional PA training programs, including a masters program.

The major catch, however, is that in order to be admitted, you have to have experience as an independent duty corpsman (IDC) in the US Navy. That job is essentially a sea-going physician assistant, and you have already gone through most of the PA curriculum in IDC school, which lasts for one year. And by the time you go to and graduate from IDC school (which is very competitive to get into), you probably have about eight or more years of active duty in the Navy.

My wife was an IDC, and spent 20 years in the Navy, which is how I know about it. After she retired, she got a masters in health administration.