What Spaniards think of the Titulo Propio

Discussion in 'Business and MBA degrees' started by smartdegree, May 7, 2021.

  1. Thorne

    Thorne Active Member

    The same can be said about any US program without a thesis or a capstone too. Any WGU degree probably falls under the same umbrella (or may not, since WGU Bachelor's programs are 4-year programs, so maybe only accelerated degrees would have this issue)

    I'd list it as issued or as permitted by the school. My Community College, for example, has permitted me to list my "AAS Information Systems Cybersecurity" as an "AAS Cybersecurity" for simplicity. They also allow me to say my other AAS is in Computer Networking rather than "Advanced Cisco Systems Computer Networking Technology" (yes, it is that bad)

    ENEB says you can call their certificates Master of Arts in [Concentration] or Master in [Concentration] and are issued as Master in [Concentration] from the partner school. Good enough for me.

    I can't imagine listing an LSE MPP on my resume as "Graduate Credits in Public Policy & Economics from the London School of Economics and Political Science." I also can't imagine taking something like the McGill Mini-MBA and putting it on my resume as "Non-credit executive business certificate from McGill." I'd just list them as "Master of Public Policy, London School of Economics" and "Mini-MBA, McGill Unviersity."
    newsongs likes this.
  2. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Some might consider a one year MSc from the UK not equivalent to the 2 year MSc Canadian Masters degree but the reality is not the length of the program but official government recognition. I do hold a one year MSc degree and it is considered a Masters degree here in Canada because it is recognized by the UK government.

    The propio degree might be easier or harder than a US or Canadian degree, the point is that it is not recognized because the Spanish government does not check for quality, teaching, content, etc. Companies recognize it because the reputation of the University and relevancy of content. The issue here is when it comes to portability to the US or Canadian market, one can put in a CV MBA Isabel 1 and this is fine as this is what you got from ENEB. Some employers might be happy with this and even you might be able to teach with it if the University that is hiring you is convinced about the degree. In the real world, there is no white or black but gray, the propio degree might be OK for many. In my case, I have one but I also have two official masters degrees, for me it doesn't matter because the prospect employer is not going to care about this degree so much but it just shows proficiency in a different area. I think these degrees have relevancy for people like me that just want an upgrade or extra learning but not intended to replace an official degree. I believe this is the purpose of these degrees, mainly continuing education, some people dont like the title cont ed certificates but in my view this is what they are but you get the master title because they count for 1500 hrs of work.

    Some people in this forum love them because convenience and price, this is great. I had to do my first masters on campus because I wanted to work in engineering and needed the credibility to do a work term in a large firm. After 20 years of experience, a masters propio is fine because people look at your CV and the propio degree is just icing on the cake. However, I bet that if I had done a propio degree with no working experience from Spain distance, I would not have been able to land a job in engineering. So the degree has its purpose and value depending on your needs.
    innen_oda likes this.
  3. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Titulo propio and titulo official are both real master degrees.
    You can't translate it to American standards because the school system in Europe is entirely different than in America.
    Here for example the title of the degree that was conferred upon you matters more than the school that conferred it, whereas in the US the reputation of the school matters more.
    Accreditation is not obsessively checked here either, as I mentioned before. They will look at what you learned during the program and what that could mean for their organization.
    That's how employers look at degrees here.
    I list my Spanish master degrees which are all propio, on my cv and that's fine. I'm totally honest about them being propio and no one cares.
    They care more about what I learned during the program.
    I still want an American degree for bragging rights though.

    Some schools confer degrees that do not exist in other countries or have a different duration elsewhere.
    I am enrolled for a higher education diploma in rehabilitation with Xamk, open university in Finland. The degree is 60 ECTS, 1.5 years.
    I would love to have it evaluated here in Belgium and hope that they consider it equivalent to an associate's degree in nursing which otherwise would take 180 ECTS, 3 years.
    A diploma of higher education in England for example would take 2 years. So I'm excited to see what they will evaluate the 60 ECTS XAMK diploma as once it's in the pocket.

    To return to the propio and official discussion :
    In the private sector no distinction is made, only in the public sector the distinction matters.

    As long as the university that awards it is listed in the ANECA data bank, the master will carry over to other European countries to some degree. Maybe not as a master but it will be recognized as a degree. I had mine evaluated and it came back as advanced bachelor.
    I list it as master on my cv but mention propio, and no one batted an eye.

    In Belgium we also have degrees that exist nowhere else in the world.

    If you get your bachelor at a university college you get a '' professional bachelor's degree '' and if you get your bachelor at a university you get a '' academic bachelor degree ''. Both are equal in terms of length : 180 ECTS, 3 years, but the difficulty differs. An academic bachelor grants access to a master while a professional bachelor has to do a preparatory program of 1,5 years before being granted access to a master.
    Yet if you would get them evaluated by NACES both would return as '' regionally accredited bachelor degree ''. Simply because in America the distinction between the two doesn't exist.

    Each country has its own complicated credential awarding system that does not translate perfectly to another country.
    No matter how hard you try.

    A titulo propio is a titulo propio.
    It was not meant to be pulled out of context to interpret it as a certificate or whatever else it isn't.
    It's a master degree that was conferred by an institution that had the freedom to design their program at will, without oversight from a government organ.
    The quality of the school is used as a grade marker for the quality of the degree in the work field.
  4. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    These propio degrees are very interesting. Trying to make them compatible to US, Canada, and other countries standards is what's difficult. Out of the possibilities of how these Master Propios are evaluated, I believe they should only be evaluated for credit hours. These are continuing education / lifelong learning type programs which should only add knowledge and/or fill in some necessary gaps without using them as official degrees which is not their intention. However, the fact that they can provide that flexibility makes them more powerful in that having an ambiguous standing can actually provide more opportunities.

    Some of these propios have been evaluated as Masters from regionally accredited schools several years ago by WES. We've seen WES give a non-accredited Masters status to ENEB which is still good considering the cost. Perhaps its possible that one of these NACES evaluators will give it a regionally accredited Masters equivalent but I doubt it.
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree, for practical purposes, you hold a Spanish Masters degree from an unknown school. It is not going to be a game changes. Your experience and previous background is going to make the real difference. The WES or foreign equivalence only makes sense if you don't hold another degree and you need it to teach or immigration or licensing purposes. If I have a MBA from Isabel next to my Canadian degree, nobody is going to care much about it. Isabel 1 is an unknown unraked school, propio or official, it makes almost no difference other than you have some business knowledge.
    TeacherBelgium likes this.
  6. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Yeah exactly.
    People see master degree and school they have never heard of.
    It's seen as legit but not a world changer.
    If people want to work with you for your skills, that master is a nice addition but they were looking more for your skills than for the diplomas. At least, after a couple years work experience a portfolio with achievements is more important than the degrees you obtained.
    I see it so often recently, that employers prefer to see a portfolio with work you undertook, rather than ask what degrees you hold.
    The degrees are the entry ticket but the skills do the rest.
  7. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    IEE responded email to my inquiry with this message concerning ENEB and propio in general....

    "We cannot guarantee the outcome of an evaluation without completing the entire educational background. Our equivalency will depend on which type of degree that you received at ENEB. Máster Universitario degrees are títulos officials (official titles) and are a part of the official Spanish education system as stated in Spanish law, so we will typically equate these to a US master's degree. Máster propio degrees are títulos propios (institution-specific or proprietary titles). Institutions are allowed to create their own propios programs, but these degrees fall outside of the official Spanish education as stated in Spanish law, and institutions are legally forbidden from using the approved diploma format for propio degrees. Because Spanish law specifically states that propio degrees are not official degrees, IEE considers such degrees as equivalent to graduate credit in the US, and we will typically equate it to a Graduate Certificate."
  8. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    U.S. Equivalent Grad Cert according to IEE for under $300. Sounds like another win.
  9. TeacherBelgium

    TeacherBelgium Active Member

    Graduate certificate is still EQF 6 in Europe, so will be equal to advanced bachelor here.
    Still a great deal.
    Maniac Craniac likes this.
  10. mintaru

    mintaru Active Member

    That is only true in countries where an advanced Bachelor's degree exists. In Germany, for instance, that is not the case. We only have "normal" Bachelor's degrees and any qualification at EQF level 6 (equivalent to DQR/GQF 6) would be seen as equivalent to that kind of degree. By the way, there are also no associate degrees in Germany.
  11. smartdegree

    smartdegree Active Member

    Thanks for checking with IEE. That's definitely a positive development. Getting those credits recognized won't be cheap though. I understand from other posts that to get the official transcripts, etc you would have to pay additional fees to ENEB (did I get that right?). Plus the cost of the IEE evaluation.
  12. Rachel83az

    Rachel83az Active Member

    I think the transcript fees are something like another $150 + evaluation of about $200 for a course-by-course evaluation. Still cheaper than a US grad/post-grad certificate.
    smartdegree likes this.
  13. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    You might be able to bypass ordering the transcript again by scanning the official transcript they sent to you before and having ENEB send the documents you scanned to IEE or other foreign evaluator on your behalf.
  14. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I see a pretty glaring issue. We're not under Spanish law and have no responsibility to adhere to it in this case, and more importantly, one of the main aims of foreign credential evaluation is to determine if the curriculum/level of a program from a foreign school equates to a U.S. program based on U.S. laws and standards. If what's written there is the standard way IEE operates (and I seriously doubt that it is), then they would be binding themselves to following the law of each government which would present a pre-determined position for evaluation, so their evaluation outcomes would be practically pre-determined, but we know that's not how this works, so one has to question why IEE is doing that in this case.

    If IEE equates it to a U.S. RA grad cert, then they would be contradicting their own position. Spanish law deems propio degrees unofficial which would (certainly in ENEB's case) equate to unaccredited as most propios come from unaccredited schools in Spain that are overseen by accredited schools.

    So far, the fairest evaluation has come from, of all places, WES. That's shocking. The rest are coming up with all kinds of questionable reasons to evaluate it as something other than what it is. ECE's convoluted reasoning to equate it to a regionally accredited Bachelor's degree already took the cake, but International Education Evaluations is picking up the crumbs. Mind you, these outcomes are not bad in the least, but that doesn't make the outcome of some of these evaluations any more fair.

    With all of the (deserved) crap WES gets for being so strict, they're actually the one evaluator who got it right and fair in this case.
  15. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    I agree with your perspective as well. I contacted another forum evaluator IESCAREE, and this is what they wrote me.

    "Thank you for your email. The Center can not inform you of the equivalency of potential studies, as we base our evaluations on completed studies in which research is done during the time that the student attended and completed the program.

    However, before you decide to attend a program abroad, it is always best to do your research of the accreditation status of not only the University, but the program itself. Spain is one of the countries in which programs can be offered and approved by the University, but not by the Ministry. Therefore, even though the University is accredited, the program is not considered accredited. You will also want to ensure that the accreditation of the program stays accredited during the time that you attend and graduate.

    If you have any questions, please contact the Center."

    Just from this email, they are likely to take the same position as WES and evaluate it as a non-accredited Masters degree. When you think about though, it does make sense as the propio is not suppose to fall in line with the traditional pathway that requires accreditation. Out of all of the evaluations, the more progressives ones are making it a continuing education type credential to further your education in a more traditional approach. However, the Masters propio was created for professional purposes instead of academic purposes. When viewing ENEB from a perspective of accreditation, the type of training is more important than the academic formality of it. Thus accreditation becomes less important. When viewing it from a perspective of degree classification, you are completing a program that falls out of line with traditional protocol but can be just as rigorous. Thus, the title of the degree is more important. Universidad Isabel 1 actually confuses the situation because they cannot formally issue a degree as official for ENEB's programs yet their certification grants ECTS credits and the evaluators come up with convoluted results. ENEB by itself degrees are approved titles with non-accreditation but they did do well with partnering with Universidad Isabel I. If they try to get accreditation by themselves without partnerships, their tuition will skyrocket and we can kiss Groupon degrees through them good bye.
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  16. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Which is why I find WES' position the most fair. A legitimate Master's is a legitimate Master's, unaccredited or otherwise. Once an evaluator starts adding bull about the laws of another country that have nothing to do with us or our system as a reason for a convoluted determination or at least a questionable one to downgrade a degree from a Master's to any number of things beneath it, they've jumped the shark and deserve to be criticized for it.
  17. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    Oddly enough, it gets a Masters degree equivalent without accreditation yet anything less than that with accreditation. In any case, this program is beneficial for the price and we are just making more out of it than what it is. I think it is good that it provides more options with differing results from different evaluators.
    LearningAddict likes this.
  18. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    Great point. While I would prefer to see them all use a Master's degree equivalence as the starting point, at least they're not all concluding to deem it as a grad diploma or Bachelor's degree or something lower, so that leaves some options for evaluation seekers, at least for now anyway. I was discussing that possible bad scenario last year, so it's good that hasn't happened yet. I guess my issue isn't so much with the outcomes as it is with the reasoning. I mean, yeah, the outcomes I still have issues with, but the reasoning being used is much more of an area of contention in my view.
    cacoleman1983 likes this.
  19. cacoleman1983

    cacoleman1983 Active Member

    Another thing to think about is the validation that ENEB is using with MCA Business School here in the states is likely trying to make it an accredited Masters degree. I think ENEB is aware that Universidad Isabel I's certification makes their Masters Propio equate to a Masters degree based on the number of hours here but it cannot be seen as an accredited Masters since it is unofficial. The certification is really used to allow for transfer of credit to other schools and since the credits are unofficial, it is allowing schools and evaluators to choose how to evaluate the hours as undergraduate or graduate effectively confusing everyone and making the rules up as they go. Thus courses are accredited while considering the ECTS hours but unaccredited right at the Masters point so the attempt is to have it validated by another university, preferably in the states, to get it recognized as official. Non-accredited colleges here in the US with state-authorization to issue degrees are official.

    I'm sending emails out to all the evaluators to learn their stance on Masters Propios and will report back to this forum with more info.
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  20. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    I thought the MCA deal would've been a good idea, that was until I learned about the lack of a transcript. That's where it all fell apart. ENEB needs to end that deal immediately and never do anything like it again. They're playing with fire. We've all talked about (and I think generally agree) how a legitimate degree is a legitimate degree, but at the end of the day enough people will still need evaluations to validate that for a number of purposes. That type of deal is a powder keg, and if it blows up it will blow up in their faces as one-by-one evaluators black list them, and once that gets around just the perception of a problem like that is enough to cut a good portion of possible enrollments. Prospective students don't need to know what the evaluation is or whether they need one or not, all they need to hear is that they've been banned by a number of U.S. evaluators and they'll go elsewhere.

    I hear they're not promoting it anymore, but that's not enough. They need to cut it entirely and distance themselves from it.
    Rachel83az likes this.

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