What is a degree mill?

posted by JimS

I have never heard of ANY other school that only has ONE open book exam that covers the entire textbook for a course, and NEVER for all the courses offered by the "university". I have a friend attending UoP, and he has shown me how the courses work. He has to log in and post messages often, interact with classmates and his facilitator, and do assignments. So, don't try to compare KWU's one open book exam to UoP's or other schools open book exams. KWU does not have one open book exam for the sake of the students, they do it to keep from paying instructors to develop courses.

 

To DesElms...

Please carefully read my posting and realize that I have nothing to do whatsoever with Kennedy - Western University, nor am I even remotely interested in engaging in a discussion of said instituation. You are making a terrible assumption about my post.

I hold two degrees from regionally accredited schools and have taken additional coursework from two other regionally accredited schools. I have never, nor can I even imagine having any coursework from Kennedy-Western.

My post was simply to raise some questions that I have whether a school is legit or not and how one determines.

From what I have learned from the discussions is that there are some generally accepted associations that grant standing and credibility to institutions. There are other institutions that have chosen not to affliate with an organization and have banded together to create their own outside of the generally accepted standards.

My point is this: Can there instances where an individual does the coursework and meets the standards set before them, ie does the work required where that individual can stand on equal with someone who has chosen to go to a institution where the requirements are much harder, but the end product is still the same?

 

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Good, informative articles and sources. Thanks for sharing them.

 

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What, in heaven's name, are you asking for?

If, as you say, you are not a mill shill, why are you posting questions that suspiciously make you look like, talk like, shuffle like, one?

"Are there instances where an individual does the coursework and meets the standards set before them..?"

Yes. Degree purchasers (mostly the co-conspirators, less frequently, the duped) can "do" the "coursework" set by the diploma mill operators to meet the "standard" (whatever that is) set before them by the diploma mill operators. So?

"...... stand on equal with someone who has chosen to go to an institution where the requirements are much harder,....."

Equal footing? Equal? You've got to be kidding, right?

Answer is: No. Only in your wildest dreams!

"....... but the end product is still the same?"

No. NEVER! The "end product" is never the same. What, in Fraudbunchkin's name, are you saying - or looking for?

If you are looking for a legitimate unaccredited institution, a few (mostly religious/cultural schools, in my opinion) do exist and have been pointed out elsewhere on these boards.

Note that KWE (i.e. the misnamed KW"U") is not one of them.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for what I think you are looking for, you certainly do not need anyone's help here on these boards, to find them. They are a dime a dozen. Just whip out your credit card and go surfing .......

Please, do not make a huge mistake by ignoring legitimately accredited colleges and universities. Do not purchase and place a "time-bomb" on your curriculum vitae.

Thanks.

 

Re: To DesElms...

Depends on what you mean by "product." A quality education? In some circumstances, yes. A degree? No, not the same "product." Degrees from unaccredited schools have severe limitations in the workplace. And remember, a degree is a representation of one's academic achievement. If the degree is faulty, it is simple to conclude that the education it represents is faulty, too. Whether or not that's fair in any individual situation, it is nonetheless true; we hear it all the time from people who can't accept that their unaccredited degrees are not accepted at face value. Well, what do they expect? It's like printing your own money.

Or, like writing a check. In most circumstances, you'll have to produce some ID to back it up, the merchant might call to verify that funds are available, etc. Or he/she might just refuse to accept checks, even thought yours is good. But a check card will be accepted because it is simpler to verify its veracity. Education is the same way. If you present a degree from, say, Towsen State, I know what that means. Even if I don't know anything about the school, I know someone does, and has accredited it. But I don't know about the education you received at, say, Century University. All I know is that no one--not even the state of New Mexico--vouches for its quality. You might go there and receive a great education. But how is someone else to tell?

 

There have been reports that people have also negotiated on the number of courses. For example,

Applicant, "That's too many courses."

KWU salesman, "Have you taken some more seminers perhaps that you didn't list?"

Applicant, "Ahhh, sure a bunch more but I have no evidence that I really did or did not take the seminar and there was no test to make sure I didn't sleep through the whole thing."

KWU salesman, "Oh that is fine, put down a few more seminers and I'll see what the admissions committee says."

A few days later, KWU salesman, "Congratualtions (again) you've been accepted and only have to take X number of classes. Also if you act immediately I've been authorized to reduce your total tuition down ..."

 

As one who has only recently found this site and have posted relatively few times, I find it interesting that by asking questions and attempting to get more information regarding the concept of distance learning, I am being accused of shilling for some school that I have never of or promoting something that is not legit.

I am sure that the questions that I have have been answered ad nausem, but I have not had the opportunity or forum to ask such questions and engage in a dialogue with others who have the knowledge and experience with the distance learning process. I don't have the history and knowledge of the background of this site as others. I would appreciate some common courtesy and patience as I seek to get up to speed with the concept and legitimacy of distance learning degrees.

What is the purpose of this site? Is it to allow individuals the freedom to ask questions and dialogue regarding distance learning? I thought so, perhaps I was mistaken.

 

Go back to your first post in this thread, then to my reply thereto. Your not actually having a KW"U" (or, now it appears we're calling it "KWE") "degree" makes only that tiny part of my reply inaccurate. The rest stands. You're singing the most common theme song that KW"U" shills sing. And there is nothing on earth you can do to convince me that you didn't know that. If you were the first shill to come here singin' the song you're singin' then maybe it would take us longer to spot you. But we've been there; done that; bought the t-shirt. We can smell your kind comin' before we even see you. You can protest all you want. That doesn't change that fact that you were making the same old Kennedy-Westernesque argument that's been heard around here over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. (And if that seemed like too many "overs," then maybe you now get my point.)

You know what is one of the most common reactions of pot-stirrers in this life? After having stirred the pot, they get feigned innocent look on their faces as they ask, "What?" (as in "what did I do?") when, in fact, they know very well what they did... and they did it quite deliberately. Look at your immediately-above-quoted words. That's you, doin' the feigned-innocence "What?" thing. Try some new tactics, will ya? We've got your number. Had it before you came here. Will still have it after you leave.

Oh, poor baby on whose rights the chosen ones here have so unceremoniously trampled. Gimmee a break. You're not asking questions for the sake of having them answered honestly; or espousing dialog regarding distance learning as part of a good faith quest for information. You're dumping your Kennedy-Westernesque toxic waste in a forum known to despise it so you can go to some other forum somewhere -- no doubt a completely misguided forum where Kennedy-Western and other institutions of its ilk are actually respected -- and you can commiserate with the other shills and trolls about how unfair things are around here; and how summarily mistreated you were.

Look... some things are just preposterous on their face. Thats where the word "facially" came from. Some things, because of their ridiculousness, do not require lots of discussion by reasonable people to be recognized as not even worth discussing in the first place; and which should, therefore, be given short shrift right out of the gate.

You think you haven't been allowed "the freedom to ask questions and dialogue" here? You ain't seen nothin'! Go to a forum populated by oncologists and try to float the notion of Kool-Aid as cancer treatment and watch how fast you'll be dismissed as a kook...

...much as you're being dismissed here... and for much the same kind of silliness.

[Sheesh! There are single-celled creatures in the universe that know how to hunt for food from the moment of birth, and this guy needs to have concepts as elementary as breathing explained to him.]

 

Having been around this neighborhood for a while, and aed before that, I'd like to agree with Gregg in the substance of his posting but I'd also like to offer a loophole (something for which he might have a professional appreciation). Let's presume the innocence of Revkag. Let's give ?him the benefit of the doubt and say that he doesn't understand that when you log onto a web forum you essentially walk into a foreign country. A country where the customs, the rules, etc. are unknown. What do you do in such a case?
You lurk a bit, read all the current postings (even the ones that are of no interest) and then you read the archives.
To put it in other terms, you learn something about the culture and witness the mistakes of others before you consider putting your foot in your mouth.
Now, in your first posting you said, "I am ready to get started but want a school that actively expresses interest in me..."
Assuming that you've previously earned a couple of degrees, you probably figured out that admission to doctoral programs is competitive. Not everyone gets in. YOU are the one that has to impress THEM. Not the other way around. You say the degree mill was the only place that responded fast enough for you? Welcome to the real world. They'll do most anything if you give them your credit card number. You said, "I am faced with doing the work and receiving a degree that many will not consider worthy or jumping through hoops and hope that some of the school that this site considers to be credible will finally step up to the plate and work with me."
NO!no!no!no!no! You've made three big mistakes!
1) If you go with the degree mill you will not have to worry about, "doing the work" There is no work. Except the effort of pulling your credit card out of your wallet.
2) Again, assuming that you've attended a couple of real universities, you already know that it's all about jumping through hoops. It's the hoops that make it a real degree!
3) It is you that has to "step up to the plate," not the school.
With all that said, redemption is possible. You are standing on the precipice of shilldom, a land from which few, if any, have ever returned. You can turn back now. It's not too late.
(we need a smilie that says, "Whatever")
Jack

 

When I hear about the hoops, I think this relates to MANY postings here when there is an inquiry about "What is the fastest degree I can get"....... I remember one of my first replies on this forum questioned that, as it should not be, in my opinion, the first factor.

I think there is plenty of debate on maybe "What degree is worth pursing", but the degree mill term sparks debate here..... as a professor of PR - "It is not what you say, it is how you say it!"

No harm done, I have dome the same many times, and I am sure I will again.

 

You my friends haven't a clue about what you are talking when you refer to me... Prejudiced and bigoted is how I view you and your comments...

The moderator has been contacted regarding your comments based on your ignorance of who I am and why I asked the questions I asked...

Regarding the competitive nature of doctoral programs... I'm ready... bring it on... I would think that one should expect the favor of a reply to a letter of inquiry regarding doctoral programs.

gee, I didn't think that prospective students would be screened based on their letters of inquiry...

As for me going away... forget about it.... I'm in it for the duration!

 

Very Good

Very good definitions
Respectfully

 

Your words in this thread are all the reader -- or even the moderator -- needs to see in order to know from where you're coming. Res ipsa loquitur.

Hmm. Maybe they read your posts here and figured that they'd learned, from them, pretty much all they needed to know about you. [kidding... er... well... sort of]

It was an empty invitation, made more to make a point than in the hope that you actually would. I, for one, am hopeful that by hanging around here, reading thoughtfully, and paying attention to what others say about what you write, you'll eventually see the light and will stop being irresponsible by suggesting the sorts of ridiculous things that you suggested in your first post in this thread.

 

Hi Keith - I don't know where El Campo is but it's a pretty church you've got. It's fine with me if you decide to stick around. There's some people here who can help you with the decisions you've got to make if you're to reach your goal. It seems to me that you've started out on the wrong foot by asking questions that commonly come from degree mill shills as a part of their warm-up routine. It may have been an inadvertent mistake (is that a redundancy?) but when you were called on it your response was less than gracious. As to your points,
Yes, you should expect a response to a letter of inquiry. How quickly that response should come is unclear and certainly varies from one institution to another.
You made a statement to the effect that, [since you didn't get a fast enough response from the legitimate schools you might have to enroll in a degree mill] makes you look like someone who is only interested in a fast degree, regardless of quality, regardless of legitimacy. This is a bad neighborhood to be found singing that song. As for letters of inquiry being screened, I would absolutely expect that letters of inquiry regarding doctoral programs would be screened. If I'm a Department Head, I'm not sending out information/application packets to every yahoo who puts pen to paper. Now as to these other matters, the schools in South Africa (and Australia too) are in the midst of their 1st semester enrollment - school starts in February there. This means it's a very bad time to be hoping for fast mail/email replies. They respond much, much better to telephone calls. Set your alarm clock and make the calls, it'll likely pay off. Otherwise, don't be such a hothead, it doesn't help your situation. Now, beyond all that, if you want to say something about which specific degree you're seeking, which schools you're considering, etc. then you might get some more specific assistance. Best of luck,
Jack

 

Jack,

Thanks for your comments... It is a fine church and a good place to live and learn. Close enough to Houston to enjoy the benefits, yet far enough away to enjoy the country... My son developed and maintains the website, which is pretty for a high school kid with no formal training in site development...

My defensiveness came because of false accusations. I asked questions and made comments regarding what can be considered a legit school, program, etc and the assumption was made that I am affliated with a place that I have had no contact with whatsoever...

I also question the comment that one should spend time reading the many posts on this site before daring to speak. I did spend time reading and becoming familiar with the information on the site. My questions are my own and are presented with no hidden agenda. If that is not acceptable to some, so be it. I don't apologize for my ignorance regarding distance learning and my desire to learn how to distinguish legit places of learning from fakes.

My main interest in doctoral study is the revitalization of small and rural churches within mainline denominations. Distance learning appeals to me because I don't want to leave my current situation and I feel that I have a ready made laboratory to do my study.

I am seriously looking at Trinity Theological Seminary's Doctorate in Religious Studies with an enphasis in leadership and management. I like the fact that they are moving toward accreditation. (a side issue, one of the North Central site evaluation team members was my statistics prof in undergrad school.) The costs seems reasonable and they seem willing to work with those on limited budgets.

I have looked at the Bethany of Alabama programs, but I am not sure that I can handle the KJV only approach to education.

In addition, I have contacted and looked at most of the independent school and many degree mills. At this point I am trying to distinguish between legit, unaccreditated schools that have valid reasons against government oversight and those who are not.

I have spend considerable time on the TRACS, CHEA and other websites looking at schools and programs, so I feel that I am fairly familiar with the various choices.

Regarding the issue of getting it done quickly, yea, I want to get it done. I have an urgent desire to learn and be in the position to help small churches revitalize and become more effective in their ministry.

Thanks for your comments and desire to help. I appreciate it!