Voters Reject Gay Marriage

What does "normality" mean?

If it just means that which is most likely, then earning university degrees isn't normal. Playing concert piano, winning Nobel prizes, or writing new testament books ... none of it is normal.

So how do we get from abnormality to immorality?

 

Of course they aren't. But I think that prejudice against gays can be more devastating than prejudice against blacks, at least in some ways.

Black children have black parents or guardians. They usually live in environments where there are other black kids around. So black kids, even those from broken homes, typically have role models and informal support networks of friends and peers.

Compare that to the conditions that many gay kids face. We all know that adolescents can be savage, never more so than when their budding manhood is at stake. So kids often ostracise gay kids, greet them with taunts of "Fucking Faggot!", and often beat the holy shit out of them.

While there may be other gay kids around, those kids are usually deeply closeted, trying to keep their own heads down, so each one feels very much alone.

When their families find out, some conservative Christian parents disown their own children while others turn them into ongoing guilt projects, hoping to shame the sin out of them. The streets of San Francisco are filled with "throw-away" gay teenagers who have fled abusive homes. In too many cases they fall prey to prostitution, drugs and HIV.

All in all, growing up gay can be the most isolated and lonely exerience that a human being can imagine, a veritable hell on earth. It's even worse if the kid buys into what everyone else is always telling him, filling himself with self-loathing and guilt. It's a miracle that the suicide rate among gay teens isn't even higher than it already is.

 

Oh - that is just mean. Now you sound like Arnie!

Seriously, I could care less about gay marriage one way or the other. It doesn't affect me. The bibical significance of it is on no consequence (to me). If you church doesn't allow it, that is fine with me too (they are private organizations who can set their own rules). However, who does it really hurt? If homosexuality was catching, I would probably be one as I have a few cousins and a few close friends who are gay. A vast majority of homosexuals are just like everyone else - working stiffs trying to get along. Most are not the flamers "in your face" types either.

Personally I think the government should be out of the marriage business all together. All marriages should be civil unions. If you choose to make it a religious ceremony, then all the power to you.

(the argument that homosexuals are pedophiles or sexual deviants doesn't wash as well. The average rapist or pediphile is a heterosexual white male between the ages of 20-35 - so if you fit that description - watch out! )

Cheers
W

 

What does marriage confer on homosexuals that contract law could not?

I am personally opposed to gay marriage and thus I will never enter into a gay marriage. The fact that I am not gay makes it much easier to avoid marrying another man.

However marriage serves the puropse of legitimizing children and creating a family in which they can grow up.
We have devalued the institution of marriage (marriage between heterosexuals) quite enough already through divorce, abandonment of spouses and adultery. We don't need gay people to turn marriage into a joke, we have done that well enough by ourselves.

So if you are gay go see a lawyer to see that your wishes are carried out. Get a living will, get a will, set up trusts to protect your assets and property. There are plenty of lawyers who do just this and I see a number of them locally who specalize in estate planning for same sex partners.

After spending 11 years in nursing I have always let the person who comforted my patient visit. I don't care if it is their significant other or their priest if the patient wants them to visit they certainly can. However the importance of a durable power of attorney used to appoint another to make health care decisions cannot be stressed enough. Without that your S.O. may not be able to make decisions for you.

So while I think marriage should be a life-long bond between a man and a woman that sets the stage for growing a family, people are going to do what they want with whom they want. While I think being gay would be 'icky' I'm sure gay people have no problem with it. I also think clams are icky but I don't condem those that have the clams Casino.

I don't have the time or energy to condem others I've got enough problems of my own. Gay or not get your ducks in a row to make sure the decisions that must be made in your life are made with your wishes in mind.

 

Loser!

I'm inclined to agree.

Why does the government need to approve and grant special consideration to relationships between people who are having sex with one another? Why are their sex lives of any interest of the state?

Perhaps the government should abolish all legal recognition for marriage entirely. Then replace it with special legal recognition of and consideration for parenthood and/or child-guardianship relationships. There's already a whole body of family law devoted to those matters, so it wouldn't be a legal stretch.

In other words, what defines the legal family state wouldn't be the relationship between two people living together and presumably getting it on, but rather the relationship between parents or legal guardians and one or more dependent children.

Marriage could still exist if people want it, but as an extralegal state that doesn't carry any special privilege. If couples wanted to formalize their relationship, they could have that done by a church, with a suitable ceremony if that was desired. And each church could decide for itself whether or not it wants to formalize gay unions.

 

Re: Re: Let's intensify this discussion

Of all the challenges I have had on here this is perhaps the easiest one yet in which to respond.

The answer is simple. Most children who lose a parent have already had the experience of being in a two-parent heterosexual household.

The overwhelming majority of children who lose a parent end up with a stepparent. Thus, the two-parent heterosexual milieu is back in tact.

 

So basically you also feel that straight people who can not have children for health reasons and people that are well into their 50’s should not have the right to merry?

 

Wow. And all this time I thought I was merry.

"Immoral and depraved" versus "bible nut case."

Wow.

 

Oppps… Sorry!

I mean to say marry. As you can probably see I already have started to thinking about Christmas.

 

As long as the marriage is open to children then they should be allowed to marry. Stranger things have happened. However two women or two men can certainly not have a union which is open to children, it is not biologically possible. Strange things happen- but not the impossible.

Its not that I don't like gay people, that is just what my moral compass tells me. I'm sorry if it upsets you, but that is how I feel. I really can't debate it with you because my opinions and feeling can't be wrong (or right) they just are.

 

This is absurd.

To make this a bit more clear, let's substitute "chopping off a hand" for "having sex." (Just to put sex in it's appropriately evil context...)

Let's assume we have two consenting adults. One wants his hand chopped off. The other wants to chop his hand off. So they chop his hand off.

Now, let's take the same situation with an adult and a child. The adult wants to chop the child's hand off. The child either clearly does not want this, or has been tricked by the adult into thinking he wants it. And the adult chops the child's hand off anyone.

I suppose that, to you, the person doing the chopping would be equally immoral in both situations.

Do a little research. The vast majority of the time when people equate homosexuality with pedophilia, they are doing so to defend pedophilia.

 

I'm not a historian but....I don't quite remember a time in our history where homosexuals were enslaved for any lenth of time. I don't recall homosexuals being bred like animals (chattle) and stripped from their familes either. While I'm talking about being "stripped"...I can't seem to find any instance of a homosexual being stripped from their homeland and subjected to any of this but...some of you think there is a similairity? You even think that being a homosexual might be worse?! I could never hide the fact that I'm black and we know (factually) that I was born this way. Don't get me wrong, I honestly believe that homosexuals go through alot (no doubt about it) but when we look at the big picture it's a horrible comparison--it is not the same (not by a long shot).

 

I am sorry but there is no way that a straight couple that gets married in their 60’s are going to produce children . Also unions between two women can very easily produce children it’s called a Sperm Bank.

 

Yeah, I get it. Lynching Matthew Sheppard was bad, but not nearly as bad as lynching a black man.

I mean, the guy was a fag. Come on. He made a choice. It was a bad choice. Some Christians made a choice to murder him. Also a bad choice. But neither choice is worse than the other.

Oh yes, I get it.

 

Thank you - you are proved yourself just to be another prejudice POS. Utilzing the Judeo-Christian point of view, suffice to say that you will be turned away from the gates of heaven to burn for all eternity.

Don't bother answering, I have put you on ignore. I can accept debate, I cannot accept a POS like you breathing the same oxygen as the rest of us.

 

Hmm... I'm not sure how to take this. Perhaps I should have used the [sarcasm] ....[/sarcasm] tags.

Or maybe you hate gays. I don't know.

Anyway, BLD has already told us that consensual adult homsexual sex is just as bad as raping a child.

Given the general hatred of gays here, coupled with the fact that none of the "Christians" pointed out the error in this, I'm guessing that most people here agree.

Which makes me wonder:

If I knew that a man was about to rape a child, I would stop at nothing, including killing the rapist, to stop that from happening.

And I don't think this is an unusual stance.

But when someone believes that consensual gay sex is just as bad as child rape, isn't it reasonble to think that they, too, would stop at nothing to keep this act from happening?

How could you agree with BLD and NOT support the murder of Matthew Sheppard?

 

grgrwll,

I have to agree with Mr. Engineer on this one. I think the real grgrwll has been exposed. lol

What happened to Matthew was horrible and should have never happened (yes, a Conservative Christian is agreeing with you). Here is where we part ways: it's ridiculous though to try to compare that death with the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) that African American slaves had to endure. All life is precious (not just gay life).

I won't condemn you to hell, unlike Mr. Engineer but...I know that we all have our perspective on various issues but yours seem to be extremely warped (I'm not saying that simply because I disagree with you) but even on other issues, you seem to offend even those who share the same point of view as you. Your logic is extremely flawed. Maybe you should rethink some things before you post (even if you forget, that "Edit" button works wonderfully).


Oh and just so you know, the comparison between homosexuality and pedophilia is the fact that both acts deviate from the "norm" (they're deviant behaviour)-don't blow that out of proportion.

 

I agree. But to Matthew Sheppard, his family, and his friends, his death was just as important as the death of a black man who was lynched.

That's all I'm saying.

That, and that while people will say that Sheppard's death was horrible, they will also say that it's not as bad as the death of a "normal" person. He was a deviant, and to some extent, he deserved what he got, just as a pedophile who was murdered deserved it, to some extent.

No, it wasn't. I'm sure that you will paint me as somehow "illogical" because I refuse to believe your revisionism when the truth is right here on this thread. Here's what he said:

"Being gay is no more genetic than pedophilia is, and they are both equally immoral."

BOTH ARE EQUALLY IMMORAL. He didn't say that both "deviate from the norm." He said they are equally immoral. Big difference.

 

Mr. Engineer:

Please, please, PLEASE do not talk about Judeo-Christian ethics, or points of view, or heritage, or ANYTHING ELSE!

Jews have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT view of God and Heaven and the duties of humankind to God and itself, and revelation and eternal salvation (the concept is meaningless) and sin and everything else from Christians.

Please don't hang these fundamentalist Christian beliefs on me and mine!

 

You are simply wrong. Women older than 60 have given birth. A 10 second search on google revealed a CNN story about a woman over 60 giving birth.

As to your concept of women being able to concieve alone perhaps you are a bit confused by biology but sperm comes from men.