Vladimir Putin

Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by Kizmet, Dec 1, 2016.

  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  2. jhp

    jhp Member

    He is an East Germany KGB. KGB's words mean nothing, especially from East Germany.
  3. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    He may lie all the time but that's not the same thing as his words meaning nothing. Also, sometimes it's more important to pay attention to what someone does not say. It can be rather revealing.
  4. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  5. jhp

    jhp Member

    I doubt he is so simplistic. Seasoned KGB will have multiple layers, and when you peeled the rotting onion back, you discover you were led by your nose all along - and still do not know what is going on...
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2016
  6. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    So what did you think of the speech?
  7. heirophant

    heirophant Well-Known Member

    Why has Vladimir Putin become a Satan-figure for the American left? It's a fairly new development. Back in 2009, after Barack Obama was elected, America's then-strained relations with Russia were being attributed to the evil George W. Bush and President Obama and his Secretary of State Hillary Clinton were talking about pushing "reset" on the US-Russia relationship. Now suddenly, that whole idea has seeming become anathema.

    I see Vladimir Putin as a Russian nationalist. (Much as the Chinese leadership in Beijing have never stopped being Chinese nationalists.) That makes him fairly predictable, since he's most likely going to act in what he perceives as Russia's interest. He isn't going to suddenly go off-script like Angela Merkel did when she opened Germany's borders to a million 'migrants', just because she personally believed that it was her (and hence Germany's and hence Europe's and hence the world's) moral duty.

    I don't think that Russia's national interests have to always be opposed to those of the United States. We should seek to prevent our relationship from becoming a zero-sum game and seek win-wins and cooperate with them when it's in our interest to do so. Cooperation in Syria might be an example, since I don't think that it's in the best interests of either country for Syria to become a failed state ruled by Islamist militias. Anti-terrorist cooperation is another.

    A good thing that Putin's done is stabilize Russia. In the 1990's, during the Yeltsen years, the big fear was Russia imploding and then fragmenting. It's still the world's largest country, by land-mass, the key to northern Eurasia. A strong Russia isn't a bad thing for a world in which weakness and power-vacuums attract trouble. Under Putin, Russia's collapse is no longer the fear. But stabilizing things required some suppression of local oligarchs and regional autonomy, and it went along with the notable revival of the Russian military, which had fallen into terrible decay in the 90's. So Putin's authoritarian domestic tendencies might not be such a bad thing in the Russian context. He certainly seems to have a great deal of popular support from the Russian people, who cheer the revival of their country.

    Maybe one of the reasons he's so disliked on the American left is that he is a nationalist and isn't motivated primarily by idealistic moralism, the way that Obama, Merkel and much of the EU leadership seem to be. Putin isn't about quashing Russian nationalism in the name of what are perceived as higher moral purposes, like 'globalization', 'saving the planet' or intervening in everyone's lives to promote 'social justice'. Putin's more of a return to the 19th century and the 'realpolitik' guys. (Russia was a very 19th century place before the communists and it's just reverting to type.)

    And in his own 'America first' way, so is Trump. Angela Merkel suddenly seems very isolated in a world that's turning against her (and the EU's) post-nationalist vision. (Sadly, Merkel's hubris brought much of it on herself.)
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2016
  8. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Wow, that's some charitable way of saying "amoral murderous thug", aintchit?
  9. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Well I don't know about the American Left but for me it began somewhere around the time he began murdering Chechens


    Then, he sorta solidified my opinion when he invaded the Ukraine.


    But maybe I'm just a little picky about that kind of thing:nono:
  10. jhp

    jhp Member

    I listened to his speech. There are several new "improvements" he is planning.
    Couple points I pulled out that concern me but cannot tell. My translation might be off a bit, but...

    Mentioned Dmitry Likhachov, and how school must teach morality... ?
    He talked about increased "science camps". These are portrayed as some fancy summer camp for students. The reality is they are re-educational facilities.
    There is also the selection of children for these special camps. They will be chosen by the State. I know how that works.
    More student volunteering - I remember this well. If you didn't do your quota, you were in serious trouble.
    Increase of the defense industry by 10%
    Farmers yeah! Laborers yeah! Small businesses, lets not beat them up so much.. just a little.
    He said he wants to increase protection against cyber threats. then immediate followed by he wants a large, new centralized digital economy I RU.
    Russia w/China.
    Russia w/India.
    Russia w/Japan.
  11. jhp

    jhp Member

    The problem is not with Putin's nationalism. The problem is how he implements it. It is unlikely US will invade Mexico. It is unlikely US will mandate mass relocation, then re-education of children (although the left is trying). And, so on...

  12. TomE

    TomE New Member

    Vlad was simply liberating the ethnically Russian people of Crimea, right??!
  13. Stanislav

    Stanislav Well-Known Member

    Liberated from WHAT, exactly? You can't be serious.
  14. jhp

    jhp Member

    I believe that was sarcasm by TomE.
  15. TomE

    TomE New Member

    Not entirely. I have read a number of articles like this one that talk about how much of the local population responded to the incident

    Crimean people celebrate 'liberation' as Russian soldiers arrive in Balaclava | South China Morning Post

    I guess you make of it what you will
  16. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

  17. Vonnegut

    Vonnegut Active Member

    Collective sigh of relief from Belarus.
  18. mdwest

    mdwest New Member

  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    The real Putin passed away some time ago. The real Putin was fluid in German.
    This Putin struggles to speak in German language and his face not matching the real Putin.

  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator Staff Member

    Lerner - If you'd like, I could copy your post over to the Conspiracy Theory thread


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