UNIVERSIDAD CRISTIANA DEL SUR translated as SOUTHERN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSITY

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by laferney, Aug 27, 2006.

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  1. JLV

    JLV Active Member

    Atributtions of CNU - Link


    In Art. 58 the CNU attributes itself the creation and approval of both new universities and new degrees (Dictaminar sobre la apertura o cierre de carreras) and (Autorizar la creación de nuevas universidades o centros técnicos superiores)



    Furthermore, in the Nicaraguan CNU website, in the document sections, they have a pdf containing the universities and degrees they have authorized.


    http://www.cnu.edu.ni/documentacion/

    You`ll see Universidades y carreras autorizadas por el CNU al 2005 Universities and degrees authorized by CNU in 2005 (updated on 20-01-06).

    And the University of Central Nicaragua is not authorized by CNU to confer any of those degrees UCS is advertising.

    List of Universities and Degres authorized by CNU

    OK, after all this compilation of information, if distinguished Ing. Arturo Collado Maldonado tells us tomorrow that CNU´s authorizations of both degrees and universities are useless, Laferney, I will start up my own university right away in Managua, and I will give you not one, but two PhDs in Pychology. Free of any charge. :D
     
  2. JLV

    JLV Active Member


    OK, bullet, this is a very nice written letter. Hopefully he helps us understand the Nicaraguan education system, and what part of the CNU attributions we fail to understand.
     
  3. laferney

    laferney Member

    As for the 2 degrees I'll take one in Psychology and one in Tourist and Hotel administration.( UCN is authorized to give that -but only at the Bachelor's level):)
     
  4. bullet

    bullet New Member

    OK

    I have an answer from the CNU. I am waiting for it in writing.

    Funny guys you two ! (Laferny and JLV)
     
  5. bullet

    bullet New Member

    reply to laFerny

    Laferny,

    I have inserted my opinions into your letter.

    The Registrar at SCU seemed sincere in their letter to me and addressed my concerns - however facts are facts - They may have an agreement with UCN -( there are false credentials/letters posted on the internet) but if this so(and I have no reason not to believe It) it would have no bearing on a student from the US. I agree with JLV in that the degree's validity appears to be lacking not only in the USA but also in Costa RICA. I base this on the response from NACES and the Costa Rican Embassy.

    From what you have posted, unless there is more, they have been clear to you. They are not saying that CONESUP has given them authorization to teach the Phd in Psychology, they are saying in the letter to you, that if they want to teach it internationally they could without need to ask CONESUP because it’s not for local use. You know like when America sells M-16´s fully automatic, they don’t do it on the national market but they do export them. They said something about not taking the easy road, this means (my opinion) that they looked for another viable option and that was to twin with a University that does have the accredited programs. Which university is this? The Nicaraguan one. From my understanding they are saying look, we could have tried to screw you (easy road) and teach you a worthless degree (like empresarial) but we did not do this method, we are offering you the learning experience through us and the degree from another accredited University. As far as false paperwork, this school the SCU would be stupid to post it on their website, because all you need to do is fax it to CONESUP and if it’s fake, we can sue (grin, see that commercial offering my services). If they would have said, yes look, we are authorized to offer you the PhD in psychology and not mention the agreement, I could understand why you would feel your legs are pulled.


    I'm not sure what Bullet is trying to say - perhaps you can clarify a few things
    A. "UCN enjoys full autonomy to offer any and all levels of Higher Education Degree or Diploma awarding programs at any level via a meeting of the Board of Directors, approval of the course name, objectives and contents, in other words, once a University in Nicaragua obtains the full recognition via an act of Congress and Presidential Decree and once it has obtained accreditation from the National Accreditor, all of its programs are automatically accredited." Question:
    But it has no Psychology programs . so there is no approval of the course name , objectives and contents. " all of its programs are automatically accredited" But the doctorate in Psychology is SCU's , not UCNs. Can you clarify?

    BULLET: Ok, when I called Licenciado Javier Solano in Nicaragua, he is a lawyer over there and I asked about the Educational System he said, look at law 89 and get back to me. I said ok. I read it and we spoke again, he said, do I need to explain it to you??????? Of course not, it says exactly how a Nicaraguan University needs to proceed to obtain accreditation of the specific programs. I then called UCN and spoke with Lic. Doris Saldamando, she said, oh no, we are accredited and we can approve any program we want by using the above: Board of Directors meets, approve the program courses, objectives, graduation requirements, etc…. I said ok, what is going on with SCU? She said we are joined on many levels, including management and they are going to offer our programs around the world, except for medicine and nursing that can only be done on campus. So I said, ok, basically this is like the Laureaute Group? They own many univerisites and cross offer programs? She said, I don´t know them, but yes, we are doing this. She said SCU is going to teach our programs to a large Nicaraguan Population that lives and works in Costa Rica. Cross platform, nothing wrong or illegal in that.


    B.I see nothing wrong with universites sharing programs but I must ask as JLV does " why would UCN need to issue a dual degree if the SCU degree was valid?
    C:You don´t see the programs on the UCN, because according to Dr. López (Vice Chancellor of the University):
    1. They are making a new website (out with the old and in with the new). Can he post something here to tell us about the Psychology programs-when will the new website be ready?

    BULLET: Laferny good point. Maybe UCN should post something on their website, all I know is that Dr. López said they are doing away with the old one.


    I admire your defending of the educational systems in the region. But they are not immune to this sort of thing. Empressarial used thier Bachelor's level CONESUP status to offer doctorates (at extremely high tuitions) to US citizens. Much has been debated about that on Degreeinfo.

    BULLET: But I don’t see SCU doing this and if they do, we will hold their feet to the fire. Laferny, one thing about Empressarial (sic) they can do this. Nothing in the law forbids it. Nothing says that a CR University cannot teach whatever they want internationally. Until a new law specifically says it’s illegal, it’s legal. Like or not. That is why Empresarial is not closed down and license taken away, it’s not illegal to do it. This is what I mean about the letter you got from SCU they are telling you, hey we could do the same thing, but we didn’t.

    So i appreciate both views but my concern is whether these degrees would meet the goal of being a doctoral level psychologist (not a licensed one but eligible for APA membership) and it wouldn’t. Would this doctoral degree since it has practicum’s built in allow for licensure as a Psychologist in Costa Rica or Nicaragua? I couldn't find out what there licensing bureaus or psychological association would say in a web search.

    BULLET: I don’t know enough about what you want to do, how many courses you will take? On which level? Since the actual accreditation comes from Nicaragua you would need to submit your degree to CONARE (not CONESUP) if you want to License in Costa Rica. They do the evaluations on foreign degrees. After CONARE does your evaluation they will issue you another degree (yes, another degree from a State University in Costa Rica). If the Degree comes from Harvard of it comes from po´dung , it does not matter.
    They would look over the course programs, professors, etc….. And from there do a course by course evaluation and if it’s comparable to a CR State School then you would obtain the co-validation.
     
  6. laferney

    laferney Member

    Thank you for the clarification.

    " don't need to ask CONESUP because it’s not for local use."
    (but as ODA points out if a university offers a degree that can't be used in it's own locality it is suspect- at least by US standards)Funny you should mention exportation of M-16's -just got done watching Bowling for Columbine.
    "It's not for local use " but in reality it's not for foreign use either because no legitimate degree evaluation service will give it RA equivlency status in the US. Yes they can export it here legally from Costa Rica but the degree will be illegal to use in many states -IN, Oregon, Michigan to name a few.

    "we can approve any program we want by using the above: Board of Directors meets, approve the program courses, objectives, graduation requirements"
    But have they ? Have they met and approved a doctoral program in Psychology with objectives etc. They offer no other doctorates.


    I'll look for the new website if and when it comes. But going on what we have now there is nothing to suggest any PhDs are given.

    So if the actual credit comes form Nicaragua after receiving a degree from a university in Costa Rica I would send a transcript or credentials from UCN to NACES and it would be seen as equivelent to a regionally doctoral accredited degree in the US.? Is that how you see it working?

    If one gets a degree from Nicaragua they can submit it to CONARE and be awarded an equivalent Costa Rican state degree, but one can't submit a Costa Rican private university (CONESUP) degree to be evaluated and a state degree awarded?

    I have nothing to dispute with you as far as how things may work legally in Central America. I just don't see any use for this program in the USA. Do you- what would be the value? Again I wish it was - on paper it certainly looks like programs offered by Cappella and Walden at much less the cost. But in reality it won't be worth the paper it's written on.

    So I can agree with you that it's all legal under Costa Rican law, they are upfront about what they offer, they have some sort of cooperative agreement with UCN ,and on a few other points.
    Where I differ is in the utility of this degee. I guess I could write NACES and ask if a doctoral degree form UCN would be considered RA equivalent -but given they don't have any doctoral programs listed currently we better wait for that new website.
    Thanks for writing.
     
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Fascinating thread. Personally, I would say if a program can't be used locally, it's best to pass it up and keep looking.

    -=Steve=-
     
  8. bullet

    bullet New Member

    better

    Steve, JLV and LaFerny:

    I got the answer to our questions, but I am still waiting for the CNU to send it in writing.
     
  9. roopert

    roopert New Member

    There are many shortcuts I am will ing to live with. Not one to a PhD. I don't care how you cut it, a 2 yr PhD is not worth the paper it is written on.
     
  10. bullet

    bullet New Member

  11. wcitizen

    wcitizen New Member

    Can you translate for us?

    Thanks.
     
  12. bullet

    bullet New Member

    read

    THIS IS APPLIES TO NICARAGUA ONLY. Get rid of any preconceived notions you have on Accreditation and how it works, how you think it works, what you have been told, don’t pretend for a second to be an expert. If you throw away your bias, you will understand the law, and accept it. If not you won’t learn something new about higher education. How did Higher Education reach this point?

    Some important points to ponder:

    1) Law 89 of University Autonomy of Nicaragua did not give the CNU “judicial life”.

    No “judicial life” amounts to “non-existence” in the eyes of the law. Compare it be being alive with no Identification and worse yet, no legal way to demand issuance of proper legal identification. No identification probably means no work, no history, no background, and no way to claim and demand your rights. Also means you are a “non-event”. The law usually recognized two basic types of “judicial life” (vida juridical) for our Spanish speakers. One is the CORPORATE PERSON, in other words a company of any of the varieties out there (Inc, LLC, PLC, Not for Profit, etc.) and the NATURAL PERSON (you, me, they, he, she). The Corporate person is given life via the Legal Representative, President, Chairman or some other Physical Manifestation of the Company; just like when we equate a company to a person:

    Bill Gates = Microsoft
    Sam Walton = Wal-Mart
    Ted Turner = CNN

    Should one of the above (I know some have passed on or no longer are the representatives of their companies) walk into a Bank and open a bank account, the Bank ,will of course ask for I.D., and some type of paperwork to prove the above has authority to act and open a Bank Account in the Corporate Persons name. Just being Bill Gates alone is not enough to open a Corporate Bank account. The good thing is the law recognizes the CORPORATE PERSON and allows it to operate within the parameters of the law. But imagine a law that forgot to issue the Corporate Person that right. Bizarre right?

    Same thing happened with the CNU. The Law gave Private and Public Universities the right to “judicial life” but did not give it to the CNU. So what is the first thing that is going to happen when a University is given life? It`s gonna say, hey, CNU can`t boss me around, they don`t have Judicial Life.







    Page 22:

    2) El CNU no constituye un organismo autónomo de las Instituciones Estatales de
    Educación Superior, por cuanto se encuentra integrado por los representantes
    legales de las Universidades Estatales y un representante de los Centros de
    Educación Técnica Superior, así como los otros actores de las Universidades. Los
    acuerdos y resoluciones que tome el CNU no son de obligatorio cumplimiento para
    las Universidades miembros de éste, quienes para el cumplimiento de los mismos
    deben ratificarlos por medio de sus máximos órganos de Gobierno, en este caso los
    Consejos Universitarios de cada Universidad.

    2) The CNU does not constitute an autonomous organism of the State Institutions of Higher Education, because it is integrated by the Legal Representatives of the State Universities, one representative of the Technical Higher Education Centers, and by the actors of the Universities. The agreements and resolutions taken by the CNU is not obligatory the execution of the same and must be ratified via the maximum committees of the (government), in this case the University Council of each University.

    BREAKDOWN:

    The CNU is made up of representatives of the very entities it is suppose to regulate. Private and Public Universities. Any resolution, mandate, etc…, adopted by the CNU is not obligatory in nature. Before anything becomes obligatory it has to be ratified by each individual university (or higher education entity).

    PAGE 23


    La Ley 89 le concede al CNU facultades coordinadoras de las Instituciones de
    Educación Terciaria y en ningún momento lo convierte en un organismo estatal
    autónomo, por cuanto carece de personalidad jurídica.

    Law 89 conceded to the CNU faculties as a coordinator of the Tertiary Level Education Institutions and at no time gave it life as a State Autonomous organism, since it lacks Judicial Personality (Judicial Life) .

    PAGE 24

    La Ley establece de manera clara e inequívoca, en sus artículos 56 y 58 que el CNU es un órgano de coordinación y asesoría de las instituciones de la educación superior en Nicaragua, así mismo tiene la facultad de autorizar la creación de nuevas Universidades.

    The Law establishes clearly and unequivocally, in articles 56 and 58 that the CNU is an organism of coordination and advisory to higher education institutions in Nicaragua, and it has the authority to authorize the creation of new universities.







    PAGE 31

    Las universidades son libres de elaborar y aprobar sus planes y programas de
    estudios, así como sus líneas de investigación, sin más limitaciones que las
    establecidas en los Estatutos y Reglamentos de éstas.
    Este principio de autonomía supone que las Universidades y los Centros de Educación Superior no están subordinados a ningún órgano, y tienen su propio régimen académico, el que se encuentra limitado únicamente al cumplimiento de las normas contenidas en la Ley de Autonomía y en sus propios Estatutos y Reglamentos.

    Universities are free to elaborate and approve their plans and study programs, and investigation projects, without limitations other than those established by their own rules and regulations.

    The principal of autonomy supposes that Universities and Higher Education Centers are not subordinates of any Organism and hold its own academic order, which is found limited only by the accomplishments of the rules contained in the Law of Autonomy and its own internal Rules and Regulations.
     
  13. bullet

    bullet New Member

    Ding Ding

    Definition of Terms:

    The word “Dictamination” appears as one of the limited faculties of the CNU. Remember that the CNU means the NATIONAL COUNCIL OF UNIVERSITIES, which is the Nicaraguan Higher Education Office of Nicaragua.

    Now, I could not find the word “dictamination” in English, so the next best word I found is “Diagnostic”. This word will gain importance below. Here are some synonyms for “diagnostic” (courtesy of www.dictionary.com)

    analytic, cogent, conclusive, detailed, diagnostic, discrete, dissecting, explanatory, expository, inquiring, inquisitive, interpretive, investigative, judicious, logical, organized, penetrating, perceptive, perspicuous, precise, problem-solving, questioning, ratiocinative, rational, reasonably, scientific, searching, solid, sound, studious, subtle, systematic, testing, thorough, valid

    The CNU keeps a list of Universities with an “inventory” for each one. The common interpretation of this is that if the program does not appear on this inventory list, then the program is not approved by the CNU. We have already covered the terrain that the CNU does not have the authority to approve degree granting programs, although it does have the authority to approve Universities. Bizzare, indeed. It is easy to see why the layman would be confused with this whole salad. First we always equate running to a website to check for information, as the way “it’s done”, our primitive brain is telling us “wow, way ta go……you just did DUE DILIGENCE”. Second we equate all educational systems as equal. Folks, wake up! This is a different system. Although, this is no different than the way people feel when they see a “university” in the USA has a DOT EDU (.edu) website. It’s the same way people feel when they can’t understand State Authorized versus National Accreditation versus Regional Accreditation, in the USA. It’s bizarre to people of other Nationalities, well so is Nicaragua, its different than what we are used to seeing.

    Ok, back to our program:

    One of the jobs of the CNU and it does state it in the law, is to issue “diagnostics” about a degree program being offered by a Nicaraguan University. The problem is, the diagnostic is not obligatory, it’s voluntary. Say that again, it’s not OBLIGATORY, it’s VOLUNTARY. Remember you are dealing with an Educational System that grants FULL AUTONOMY to a University, once it gains approval. Autonomy to create and approve its own Programs, amongst other things.

    But once the University has authorization to operate, it can turn its back on the CNU. Like a child that turns its back on its family.

    When problems have arisen between the CNU and a University (both Public and Private), the great equalizer has been summoned to sit in Judgment. Who is this? THE SUPREME COURT OF NICARAGUA.




    PAGE 46

    Las Instituciones Privadas de Educación Terciaria han
    venido creando una resistencia natural contra el CNU, quien en algunas
    ocasiones ha actuado de manera arbitraria, afectando los intereses de dichas
    instituciones.
    Estas contradicciones, en algunos casos, han tenido que ser resueltas por la
    Corte Suprema de Justicia, mediante la tramitación de recursos de amparo. En
    algunas ocasiones dichas sentencias, lamentablemente, de manera que le
    conceden al CNU atribuciones que van más allá de las que la ley 89 le concede:
    como ejemplo tenemos una sentencia en la que señala que el CNU es el único
    órgano del Estado facultado para dar la autorización de funcionamiento a las
    nuevas instituciones de educación superior. (lo que es correcto)
    En la misma sentencia la Corte señala que el CNU tiene la atribución de
    supervisar y vigilar el funcionamiento de las instituciones autorizadas
    (competencia que no aparece contenida en el artículo 58 de la Ley 89.
    En otra sentencia la Corte Suprema de Justicia determinó que el dictamen del
    CNU no es vinculante para la apertura de carreras, por lo tanto las Ins tituciones
    podrán abrir las carreras aún con un dictamen desfavorable.

    Private Institutions of Higher Education have begun to create a natural resistance to the CNU, that is some occasions has acted arbitrarily, affecting the interests of said institutions. These contradictions in some cases had to be resolved by the Supreme Court of Justice, via a writ of Constitutional Rights. In some cases, the judgments, unfortunately, have given the CNU attributions that go beyond what the law 89 concedes: for example we have a judgment that points out that the CNU is the only Body of the State that is authorized to allow a University to operate. (This is the correct interpretation). In the same judgment the Supreme Court points out that the CNU has the authority to supervise and invigilate the operations of authorized Institutions (authority that does not appear in articles 58 of Law 89)

    GET READY HERE COME THE PUNCH LINE.

    In another Judgment the Supreme Court of Justice determined that the diagnostic of the CNU is not imperative for the opening of degree granting programs, and as such Institutions can open degree granting programs even with an unfavorable diagnostic.

    Read the above three lines at least 10 times.

    The Supreme Court of Justice has spoken. Nicaraguan Universities do not need specific authorization to open a DEGREE GRANTING PROGRAM.

    The Diagnostic of the CNU is not imperative…………………

    Institutions can open degree granting programs even with an unfavorable diagnostic.

    CONCLUSION:

    A Nicaraguan University can approve their own programs with or without the beneplácito of the CNU, PERIOD. The CNU “inventory” of programs they list is a rubber stamp that is not OBLIGATORY for a University to offer it.

    Any program.

    Any level.
     
  14. laferney

    laferney Member

    CONESUP finally replies

    According to our information, Universidad Cristiana del Sur offers only careers conducive to the degrees of Bachillerato and Licenciatura in different areas.

    Besides, this university is not authorized to offer a doctoral degree program in Psychology.

    The following chart includes the programs legally approved by CONESUP.

    Universidad Cristiana del Sur

    GRADO
    CARRERA
    CON ÉNFASIS CON MENCIÓN EN CON ESPECIALIDAD
    SESIÓN
    FECHA

    BACHILLERATO
    DERECHO

    352-98
    09/07/1998

    LICENCIATURA
    DERECHO

    352-98
    09/07/1998

    BACHILLERATO
    ADMINISTRACIÓN DE EMPRESAS CON ÉNFASIS EN:
    GERENCIA O CONTABILIDAD
    352-98
    09/07/1998

    LICENCIATURA
    ADMINISTRACIÓN DE EMPRESAS CON ÉNFASIS EN:
    GERENCIA O CONTABILIDAD
    352-98
    09/07/1998

    BACHILLERATO
    TEOLOGÍA BÍBLICA CRISTIANA

    474-03
    15/01/2003

    LICENCIATURA
    TEOLOGÍA BÍBLICA CRISTIANA

    474-03
    15/01/2003

    Sincerely,

    Dr. Carlos Lépiz Jiménez

    Director Ejecutivo
     

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