Trinity College of the Bible Theological Seminary?

If you were such an institution's attorney, would you advise it to admit that it had been dishonorable in any way while it was collecting tuition from students? The pound of silver makes it commerce; and the disingenuousness could make it commercial fraud -- potentially of the criminal variety. A school is a corporation which is a legal entity. From a legal standpoint, therefore, said entity has a "self." Confessing to prior bad acts in the interest of satisfying a public sense of appropriate repentence so that said public will forgive could mean simultaneously making statements against self interest of the incriminating variety which can be used against the school in civil or even crminal proceedings. I've tried to dance around this gingerly throughout this thread, but I'm starting to realize that that's not enough. Fine...

Trinity cannot and will not confess to prior bad acts -- or even current ones. Period. Any CEO or board chairman or corporate officer or board member who did such a thing would be violating his/her fiduciary trust and, were said corporation a public one, quite possibly subjecting himself/herself to criminal charges or SEC violations citings. The officers, board members and executives of a corporation have a responsibility to the corporation, which corporation's interests may differ from those who operate it. Many here seem not to grasp that basic concept... the concept that a corporation, in the eyes of the law, is a legal entity just like a person... save for the breathing and eating part.

Here's, I believe, the easiest way to illustrate it: We all know that a man may represent himself in either a civil or criminal court of law (no matter how foolish it may be to do so... remember the old saying, "A man who represents himself has a fool for a client). He may not, however, unless he is an attorney, represent anyone else, even his wife or child. Similarly, a man who is president and CEO (and even chairman of the board and all officers) of a corporation may not, in most states, represent it in court -- even if he owns it and all its shares lock, stock and barrel. The corporation is a separate identity from its owner and must be represented by counsel which will, in turn, take its direction from the corporation's directors or officers or whomever its charter says has the authority to do such a thing; and both said direction, and the actions of counsel, generally, must be in the best interests of the corporation.

Were I Trinity's corporate counsel I would never advise it to admit any previous or current wrongdoing, be it civil, criminal or simply moral/ethical, no matter how loud the public outcry. Instead, I would simply counsel Trinity to vote with its feet and let its current and future actions speak for it; to demonstrate without saying it that it had turned itself around; and, if it was in a hurry to make that point, to do something extraordinary to call its new lease on life to the public's attention.

Trinity's seeking regional accreditation is extraordinary, is it not?

I abhor what Trinity has done in the past -- and, as Janko points out -- what it appears to continue to be doing. I have a real problem with it, from a purely moral/ethical standpoint; and the part of me that does would just love it if it would confess, ask for forgiveness and move forward from there with honor and integrity as Bill prescribes. But the part of me that understands the secular, legal issues -- and, moreover, who reveres them nearly as my religious beliefs -- would have even less respect for it if its directors jeopardized its very existence by making such reckless admissions and other similar statements against its interests.

So that leaves Trinity with only one thing left that it can do, and that's precisely what it is (or at least appears) to be doing: Skipping the contrition part altogether, and moving forward with only its current and future actions by which it hopes we will judge it. And as its first official act in pursuit thereof, it offers us regional accreditation -- the very "gold standard" upon which we all rely so much around here, and which so many of us have so often invoked with pride and even arrogance.

While I am troubled by Trinity's bad behavior, I am not troubled at all by its unwillingness to confess to it. I am doing the only thing I can do, under the circumstances, and judging it by the only thing it's offering for me to assess: Its attempt at regional accreditation. Of course, that said, its past is also fair game for judgement.

So there's the content of each side of the scales, isn't it: Trinity's past for which it offers no explanation or apology on one side; and Trinity's present and future which has as its hallmark thus far, imminent (or seemingly so) regional accreditation.

I could not more strongly agree.

Ouch! Now there's a point of real shame, isn't it?

So, then, with so much of the rigor riding on the quality of the prof like that, it's probably a good thing that Trinity has been recruiting higher quality faculty in anticipation of being regionally accredited next year, no?

No argument there, for godsake. That's ridiculous. I wonder, however, if it's still the case at Trinity -- or, if it is now, if it will still be by next Spring?

 

RA? Still no way.

It's really very simple. Consider the moral and mental calibre of degree mills. Consider the moral and mental calibre of the persons devoted to them (on copious and self-annihilating display any number of places). So if this outfit gets RA and does not change its practices in the areas outlined, we can assume it and its owners possess the moral and mental calibre of millists. I'd take my business to Kinsel's, thanks all the same.

 

I am curious if TTS, once accredited, will somehow try to either claim or manipulate MDS into accreditation status.

 

Oh, ick. Jimmy, that's gross.

(Sorry for sounding like an appalled eight-year-old, but I was trying to get into the mindset of someone who would think good what you mention in disgust. I figured eight would be about right. It's past the age of reason but prime time for booger jokes.)

Seriously, Dr Clifton, I surely hope not.

 

While DMin programs are supposed to be more practical than PhD programs, I find Trinity's DMin in Biblical Counseling quite lacking. They substitute a practicum for the project/dissertation. That sounds more like a masters degree to me.

BTW, Bill, your expectations of professors don't sound unreasonable to me. It sounds like Clutter (Is that really his name, ha, ha) was only going through the motions.

Tom

 

Hi Tom

Welcome to DI. Nice to "see" a "face" from BB.

I think the fault that I perceived was not so much of an anomaly in the profs as it was in the TTS sort of instruction. Usually all the profs did was to put fill out an "Assessment of Course Submission" by giving from 0 to 10 points in 10 categories supposedly emulating an educational standard of assessing levels of comprehension as "Analysis" or "Synthesis."

Now, I'm sure that was a great saver of prof time , but it did NOTHING to drive the student into further reflection and research IMO. The reason , I think, that Ron Clutter, whom I do respect, did a little more on the Crack in Chalcedonian Christology paper was that he disagreed so vehemently with my thesis: that in the one Christ are two acting, willing, experiencing natures. Of course the viewamong the many ancients, as Agatho and the Damascene, is that these three qualities reside in nature not in person.

IMO the great potential disadvantage in DL doc learning is the lack of interaction between student and prof, and Trinity's one page printed grade form did NOTHING to hurdle over that pitfall ; it instead IMO dug the hole wider between prof and student by defining prof duty as a few minutes spent filling out a form.

A cumulatifve "A" on this form much warmed the heart of the student, but I think it did little to fire up the mind.

 

while seeking the truth I have found that while MDS was started by people associated with Trinity, there is no longer any relationship between the two. As a matter of fact (I believe my assumption is correct) Trinity would have the same feelings about MDS as most people on this board.

Always seek the truth.

Wright

 

SOURCE, PLEASE!

Could you cite your source? Or at least summarize how you came to this conclusion.

Thanks!

 

Oh, why not? I apologize for any and all questionable practices, claims of accreditation, statements of utility, discounts in tuition, glossy stickers that would not stick, etc..........any and all occurances from this 14th day of July, 2005, all the way back to the good old days of Toledo. I apologize, repent and beg the forgiveness of all offended.

 

Thanks, Bill! There are some interesting and very knowledgeable folks here. I agree about the interaction. In a classroom a student could talk to the prof. after class or make an appointment with them. In DL your options are quite limited. At some point I picture myself doing some adjunct DL teaching. I'll keep your comments in mind.

 

Thanks, Bill! There are some interesting and very knowledgeable folks here. I agree about the interaction. In a classroom a student could talk to the prof. after class or make an appointment with them. In DL your options are quite limited. At some point I picture myself doing some adjunct DL teaching. I'll keep your comments in mind.

 

Forgiven...but only if you bow in obeisance!

 

Thanks, Bill! There are some interesting and very knowledgeable folks here. I agree about the interaction. In a classroom a student could talk to the prof. after class or make an appointment with them. In DL your options are quite limited. At some point I picture myself doing some adjunct DL teaching. I'll keep your comments in mind.

 

Thanks, Bill! There are some interesting and very knowledgeable folks here. I agree about the interaction. In a classroom a student could talk to the prof. after class or make an appointment with them. In DL your options are quite limited. At some point I picture myself doing some adjunct DL teaching. I'll keep your comments in mind.

 

Hey, PatsFan! Just one click on the ol' "Submit Reply" button, there, good buddy! Make it one good, solid click, and pay attention, while you're doing it, and try to observe if it actually appeared to depress as you clicked on it, and then remained "highlighted" or "lit" afterward. If it did, then any failure of it to go ahead and post is either with your Internet connection or, more likely, because of a temporary slowness in the DegreeInfo web server.

When that happens, just stop. Don't keep clicking it to try and make it go through. Instead, just copy the text of your posting from the composition box up to your computer's clipboard, then open Windows Notepad and paste it there, then save it to your desktop as a temporary text file; then just go about your business and come back later and make the posting when the DegreeInfo server's working right again. All you'd need to do at that point would be to get back into the same thread, check to make sure your original attempt didn't finally post anyway and then, if it didn't, click on the "Post Reply" button, open the aforementioned Notepad file, copy and paste its contents into the thread's composition box and then click on the "Submit Reply" button. If it takes it, then close the Notepad file and delete its icon off your desktop.

Just tryin' to be helpful!

 

Well, I found nine old Master's Divinity School threads:

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18384
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18209
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16402
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16114
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14118
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14094
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13266
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5609
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2205

and two old Newburgh Seminary threads:

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14740
http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8853

 

Hey Bill, Thanks for the warm welcome! I agree that a student is not really getting their money's worth if a prof. doesn't put a bit more effort into "interacting" via the critique of the paper. After I finish my DMin I'd like to do some adjunct DL teaching. I'll keep in mind your thoughts on the subject. You've also challenged my Christology. I'm not sure where I am on this issue. Do Grudem or Erickson do justice to this topic?