Too many people with online DBAs and PhDs?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by RFValve, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    No I do not and do not list the UoP degree either. For teaching positions, I don't list NA schools if I am applying to RA school. On my resume, I would not list them. It would look like overkill. I have not changed jobs in 10 years so I started my current job without a degree. Hopefully I will never have to decide what to put on a resume because I am job hunting ;)
  2. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    I could see the overkill aspect, but I bet you would have lot of HR people doing a double take when the see it. And soon you will be adding a PhD!
  3. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Yes, that is the trend -- at least for tenure-track faculty. Note that a tenured faculty position may be held for life, so such positions routinely go for 30 or 40 years (or even more) before they turn over. Since turnover of tenured faculty occurs at a relatively low rate, the 500 AACSB accredited schools produce sufficient graduates to handle the demand.

    Similarly, there is a trend among companies to only offer tuition reimbursement for courses at AACSB-accredited business schools. For example, Intel, FedEx, and Lockheed have stopped reimbursing employees for studying business at non-AACSB schools like UoP.

    Of course, these are only trends, not universal rules. There are undoubtedly plenty of companies that still have loose tuition reimbursement policies. But the trend is towards tightening.

    No, that's not going to happen. But you can expect to see increasing favoritism towards degrees from prestigious universities or with prestigious accreditation -- as in the preferred treatment of AACSB-accredited business degrees noted above. There are just too many lower-tier degrees flooding the market, and there is no sign of the flood abating.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2010
  4. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator is a good idea to get an AACSB PhD if you do not want a TT position because...why?
  5. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    For me the real question is who the heck supervised these doctoral degree holders? Generally speaking, a supervisor might have one or two doctoral students under him or her. This is reasonable to ensure quality supervision and quality education. Am I to assume that UoP had 129 to 258 doctoral-qualified EXPERT professors in their fields supervising these graduates at one time? I find these numbers staggering.

    Am I to assume there were 129 to 258 doctoral-qualified EXPERT professors who were PUBLISHING regularly in their field supervising these doctoral candidates?
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    It is more about life style than anythiing else. As a professor, you only work about 9 months a year and set your own ours. You have job security and get to develop your own projects.

    Salaries are not as high as industry but many professors make extra income as adjuncts or research supervisors at other universities. Some others do consulting.

    Some professors at the prestigious universities make 250K or more. The reality is that to make money a good bachelors degree is enough, it is more about skill and connections than anything else.
  7. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    The Internet has expanded educational opportunities, but it has also made the checking of qualifications much easier. A Google search of a university can allow the determination of accreditation in a couple of minutes.

    We all know there are a few tiers of doctoral education. It might not be spoken about publicly much, and no matter how people tout NA, RA or other national accreditation, the requirements for doctoral degrees to have utility for what they were meant for (i.e. teaching and research) is becoming tighter. AACSB, EQUIS and AMBA are the gatekeepers for business doctorates. Forget RA, NA and the rest... It's just not really relevant for the universities that still make it their business to graduate top-quality people and conduct bleeding edge research.
  8. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Universities are increasingly replacing traditional tenure-track faculty positions (high salaries, lifetime job security, full benefits) with adjunct faculty positions (low salaries, short-term appointments, no benefits). The advantages to the universities should be obvious. The strategy works because there is now a large (and growing) pool of degree holders who are qualified and willing to teach, even for relatively poor adjunct compensation.

    If you have a non-AACSB degree, you have a much better chance of landing adjunct work than of landing a tenure-track position. However, since the pool of degree holders is still growing, even adjunct positions are becoming more competitive. If this trend continues, then in the long run AACSB degree holders will be favored, even for adjunct positions.

    As noted previously, there is no reason to suppose that the for-profit schools will do anything to limit their production of non-AACSB degrees. So in the long term, it is likely that non-AACSB degrees will become increasingly devalued everywhere, due to oversupply. Such devaluation is already obvious in some situations (e.g. tenure-track faculty positions, Intel Corp.), and it may be just a matter of time before it becomes evident in others.
  9. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    An alternative possiblity is that the dissertation supervisors are part-time, low-paid adjuncts -- possibly recent graduates of for-profit schools themselves -- who supervise doctoral theses as a source of secondary income.

    You can make your own assumptions. By the way, UoP is always looking for new doctoral faculty. Apply now!
  10. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Also, keep in mind that even the "lower salary" is a bit of misnomer. On a per year basis, Professors may not make as much as their counterparts in industry, however on a PER HOUR basis, a tenured professor's salary is more than competitive.
  11. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Where are you getting your numbers. Accounting PhDs from AACSB schools are getting way more that that straight out of school. I know someone who is ABD at UConn and got a position paying $130k. Apparently finishing the dissertation would net her another $30k, but she couldn't pass up the job and will attempt to finish the dissertation while working. Accounting PhD's out of schools similar to UConn typically get well over $100k to start and most do additional consulting work.
  12. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Normally you get paid a lump sum per dissertation supervised. I applied once to be a supervisor at a for profit school but the pay was ridiculous low. They want you to send feedback of a draft for a dissertation in less than a month. I wonder how much feedback you can really give in a month. The other issue is that if the student doesn't graduate, you don't get the full amount so it seems to me a clear conflict of interest as the supervisor will do his or her best to graduate the student otherwise will lose their money invested in the student.

    As you mentioned, most of the dissertation supervisors are graduates of the same type of schools. There are also quite few that have prestigious doctorates but supervise in an area that is not their original field. There are quite a few PhDs in English, Social Science, etc that supervise in Management. I suppose they are hired because nobody will ask their field but they get to put their University names in their catalog.

    To me is just a business model, pay the supervisor a miserable amount and charge the student a small fortune. The student once gets the online doctorate, will try to cash out from his or her degree by doing the same thing and supervise other students that will pay for the initial investment. As the online graduate doesn't know better, he or she will continue with the lower standards that lead to her or his doctorate degree. Nobody cares as the students keep dishing out the money. At the end of the day doesn't cost much to print the letters doctor on a piece of paper.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2010
  13. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    If this is the case, then these "doctorates" are not worth the paper they are printed on. God help us all.
  14. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Unfortunately with diminishing returns (i.e. photocopies of photocopies) the quality is going to get to the point when the online "doctorate" is nothing more than a useless qualification. I cannot imagine supervising more than two doctoral candidates at any one time. One would be the preferred number.
  15. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Most supervisors at graduate schools only take few candidates. This mainly also because the supervisor is expected to fund the student. Onlines have a different model, students dont get funding but instead pay small fortunes for the degree so it is in their best interest to graduate as fast as possible. Online supervisors are not really committed to the online school as they just see it as a secondary source of income contrary to the supervisor at a B&M school that needs to keep a good reputation in order to keep getting research grants.
    The rented faculty phenomenon exists mainly because it is a good way of making money. Instead of paying the 100K plus benefits to a full time faculty member supervising only few students and teaching 4 courses per year, I can pay 1.5K per course taught and 3K per dissertation supervised and and pay as I need the faculty rather than having the fixed cost of full time faculty.
  16. JeepNerd

    JeepNerd New Member

    I am reading a novel right now called STRINGS by Dave Duncan and one of the running "bits" is that EVERYONE is "Doctor" so and so!!! TV broadcasters, bodyguards...everyone!!

    Strings - Google Books

    I would say the golden nuggest is the AACSB rating and that IF that gets cracked by TUI, NCU, Nova, etc... then it is game on!!

    30 years from now this conversation will not exist... I suspect a LARGE percentage of the population will have received a large part of their training online!! (I am not sure the "for profit" schools are going to be able to keep charging their current rates though...that should drop and they will start merging and fading away into a few MEGA online for profits)

    Think about the math for a moment, $600 per hour (up to $1000) is the norm for online doctorate programs.

    A single 3 hour class then costs a student $1800-3000. The professor for that class gets paid $1500-3000. The rest is going to computer costs (how many classes can you run on say a $15,000 server, a bunch I bet)... software (blackboard, etc) and the rest is...?

    Honestly it is JUST a matter of time before B&M jump in with both feet, they just need an incentive.

    So, I am a small B&M, I look for a niche (Say a short residency PhD/DBA in Accounting, PLEASE)... Admit 30 top notch students who are already CPA, etc.

    18 hours per year, 3 year program = $32,500 per student x 30 students = $975,000 of revenue for my little school assuming they stay in. Even as they drop off, we will probably generate on average $500k per year for that little program. (50 students enrolled in various stages of their doctorate)

    That is for a "cheap" program too, only $600 per hour.. I am really surprised EVERY small private college in the USA is not working on releasing their own doctorate? They are charging 2-3x for a doctorate student than regular...and their "cost" / professors is maybe 1/10th, so that is 400-450k adding to their bottom line?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2010
  17. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    It won't take long for this to happen. All it takes is to have automated system of the style of Pennfoster college that gives doctorates for 5K by answering a bunch of online open book multiple choice questions so then eveyone will have one. The inconvenient dissertation can be replaced by a portfolio assessment based on work experience or a doctoral project that can be based on your job as a real estate agent. Some of the DETC programs work this way and that is why they are so cheap so once they start making cheap doctorates it will become the norm.
  18. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Yes PF is a joke. I could do a BS in less than six months if I had the cash.
  19. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I called AACSB and they emailed them to me last year. I go to the source and don't pull numbers out of my ass (not saying others do).
  20. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Well, this fruitful discussion has certainly benfetted by the sleuthing of CalDog and others. While the major online doctoral institutions do not consititute the bulk of earned doctorates, it appears obvious that they do in business doctorates. Perhaps the largest B&M doctoral business program is that of George Washington University, whose graduation rates is slightly less than Walden's.

    Now this idea that at B&M programs "supervisor is expected to fund the student" is interesting. Where in the world did you get that idea? While it is true that a number of doctoral students receive scholarships and others receive teaching or research assistants, this varies widely by institution and discipline. While at Arizona State, I received an assistantship that exempted me from out of state tuition, but I still had to pay my tuition and fees and get jobs (and student loans) to pay for them. There were only two or three teaching assistantships for the three dozen doctoral students in my program. During the past 23 years working in hgiher ed, I am aware of the assistantships and scholarships at my colleagues institutions. I can assure you that the vast majority of these doctoral students do not have supervisors that fund them. Numerous B&M students pay tuition and fees amounting to "small fortunes" that dwarf those at for-profit DL institutions.

Share This Page