Too many people with online DBAs and PhDs?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by RFValve, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    My point exactly. As matter of fact, online schools graduate mainly in the business and education fields. IT is normally part of their business programs. The 2000 in question might be little compared to the 48000 but if we only take business and education graduates then then numbers can become more significant. There is also the growth of graduates from online schools that seem to be growing dramatically. Lets don't forget that online doctorate are very new so in 2008 you only had the first generation of graduates so we need at least two years of data in order to calculate growth.
  2. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Online doctorates are available in business, education, psychology, counseling, social work, health & human services and several other disciplines, so it is not correct to assume that they are exclusively (or even primarily) in business. There are at least as many DL doctorates in education as there are in business and nearly as many in psychology.

    My 2008 date was a typo, the data was actually from 2009, which is the latest available.
  3. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    But again, these are assumptions. We still don't know about growth of online doctorates and don't know how many doctorates in business were granted by online schools in comparison to traditional schools. Even with the spectrum of degrees you mention, this is very limited compared to the ones available in arts, sciences, engineering, social sciences and other fields not mentioned. Yes the Walden and Capellas have other degrees than business but I really doubt they grant too many of these degrees in counceling and social work specially when these degrees cost small fortunes, but again these are just assumptions.

    My speculation was based on the fact that most of the resumes in resume bucket were from online schools so it appears as they are quite a few out there. I know resumebucket is not exactly the best source of quality resumes but I was just surprised by the results so I wanted to share.

    I personally have noticed that most of the new online adjunct hires at places that I work have degrees from Capella, Walden, etc so it just gives the perception as they are just graduating too many. But again, it could be that schools prefer these schools for online adjunct positions.
  4. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    I think we can make some educated guesses.

    The following numbers were pulled from the US Dept. of Education's "College Navigator" website. They show the number of doctoral degrees in business (which could include PhDs and/or DBAs) issued in 2008-09.

    First, let's look at the numbers for some well-known traditional B&M universities, both public and private, picked more or less randomly:

    17 Harvard
    5 Yale
    5 UC Berkeley
    7 UCLA
    17 Stanford
    18 U Texas - Austin
    6 U North Carolina - Chapel Hill
    17 U Michigan

    Now, let's compare with the numbers for some well-known for-profit schools:

    258 U of Phoenix - Online
    240 Capella
    100 Northcentral
    42 Walden

    Notice any differences?
  5. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    From this I can see that the people that go to UoP are more motivated and smarter then the people that go to Yale...more graduate :D
  6. Tireman 44444

    Tireman 44444 Well-Known Member

    Maybe and just maybe, for-profits provide an avenue that would be otherwise be not there years earlier.......
  7. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Of course they do. Nobody doubts that for-profit and online programs have made doctoral degrees in business more accessible to more people. This in part reflects their convenient mode of delivery (e.g. ubiquitous satellite campuses, online instruction) and in part reflects their low admissions standards (e.g. no GRE or GMAT required).

    The question posed by the Original Poster is whether such accessibility has gone too far, and whether the market is becoming saturated. That's harder to determine.

    It does seem clear that in terms of sheer numbers, schools like UoP have greatly increased the supply of business doctorates in recent years. If demand has not risen by a comparable amount (and there is no obvious reason to suppose that it has), then it would be reasonable to expect the average value of a business doctorate to decline.

    My hunches, for whatever they may be worth, are that:

    - in general, online PhDs/DBAs from for-profit schools currently have a substantially lower market value than their traditional counterparts;

    - in general, the value of such degrees is continuing to erode relative to their traditional counterparts;

    - if the market isn't saturated at present, then the for-profit schools will continue to market and promote their degrees aggressively until complete saturation is achieved. What incentive do they have to stop while there is still money to be made?
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2010
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Thanks for this stats. I knew that something was wrong with the picture given before. Judging by the stats given here, it looks like online universities are granting mainly business doctorates and they are a considerable amount of the total number of degrees. This explains the recent trend towards the AACSB accreditation requirement for teaching positions.

    The other questions is, what is the growth rate of this new business doctorates? If UoP is graduating in one year more than what Yales produces in 50 years, what is the value of the UoP degree? Is it really worth the 40 to 60K they charge?

    Some also question the academic value of these factory produced doctorates. I know the CTU (another online for profit) now grants doctorates without dissertations and I'm sure other online for profit will follow this trend once the market is saturated and they need to increase the enrollments.
  9. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    They will milk the cow at the expense of some people's illusions and hard earned money. I know that some people in the forum hate to hear this and some get sensitive about the value of this type of doctorates, but I believe is important to see the reality before an important financial decision is made.
  10. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Most of the action seems to be in business, education, and psychology doctorates, but not necessarily in that order. From College Navigator again:

    UoP Online Campus:
    55% business
    34% education
    11% health care management

    42% education
    34% business
    14% psychology
    10% other

    45% business
    40% education
    15% psychology

    55% education
    20% psychology
    12% business
    12% other
  11. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    UoP is operated by a publicly traded company (Apollo Group) which has seen a substantial drop in share price (as high as $89 in 2009; currently about $48). As with any publicly traded company, they are under constant pressure to increase revenue and profit. This was easy to do when non-traditional education was a new concept, and when there were huge opportunities for growth.

    But it's a more mature market now, with a lot more competition. In the future, it will be increasingly difficult for UoP (and similar schools) to meet those all-important revenue, growth, and profit targets. They will be looking high and low for ways to enroll more students, and they will cheerfully sacrifice academic standards to do so. Their academic reputation (which is already low) is destined to go only one way in the future: down.

    This would trouble me if I were an alumnus. UoP is so desperate to keep enrollments up that they recently tried recruiting drug-addicted high school dropouts at homeless shelters. That's probably not the kind of association that you want when invest your time and money in a university degree.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2010
  12. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Facinating stats.

    I took those same numbers and added to them the number of undergraduate and graduate students at each school. The information is from Wikipedia which isn't academic, but it was a quick source of numbers. The for-profits appear to have tiny undergraduate populations and gigantic graduate populations, with the exception of U0P.

    17 Harvard - 7181 undergraduates - 14000 graduate students
    5 Yale - 5200 undergraduates - 6300 graduate students
    5 UC Berkeley - 25000 undergraduates - 10000 graduate students
    7 UCLA - 26000 under - 11000 grad
    17 Stanford - 6800 under - 8400 grad
    18 U Texas - Austin - 38000 under - 12000 grad
    6 U North Carolina - Chapel Hill - 17000 under - 10000 grad
    17 U Michigan - 26000 under - 15000 grad

    Now, let's compare with the numbers for some well-known for-profit schools:

    258 U of Phoenix - 412,000 undergraduates - 78,000 graduate students
    240 Capella - 6400 under - 27,000 grad
    100 Northcentral - 418 under - 79000 grad
    42 Walden - 2400 under - 31000 grad

    Notice any differences?
  13. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Would anyone like to calculate the ratio of the total number of graduate students and the total number of doctoral degrees awarded? It would be an invalid calculation because the current student population would be compared to doctoral degrees that were awarded at an unknown time -- but it would still provide a rough guess for comparison purposes. :)
  14. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    Also it does not tell now many students are in doctoral programs vs. masters programs.
  15. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    There are 476 AACSB accredited business programs in the US. There are 7,126 college in the US found here - IPEDS Data Center

    Do you mean to tell me that the trend to hire staff for 7,000+ schools will come from under 500 schools? Is that the trend? How can that happen without more schools earning AACSB accreditiation...which will water it down so AACSB-PLUS will need to be created to make another level...and it will never end.

    By the way, I am in no way sensitive to my NCU degree and understand it has limitations in the academic world - I am realistic about the acceptance at schools like USF or UF which would be nil. I know on my CV my education is only part of the picture. I also have corporate experience and had a few things published. I would not want a TT position at a B&M school. I would rather make money in a corporate job and adjunct (not all the eggs in one basket thing).
  16. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    Next people will need a super PhD or S.Ph.D
  17. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    That is what I was getting at!
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    If you read places like the chronicle of education, you will see that most business schools require Phds from AACSB accredited school. Will they get them? probably not all, I'm sure that there are quite a few schools that settle for non AACSB graduates but in the long term this seems to be the rule. I believe this might be a way just to filter candidates.

    The question is if the online schools will be able to get AACSB accreditation. I believe some schools like Walden are trying by hiring a higher percentage of full time faculty. Online schools know that the first one to get the accreditation will get the market so I'm sure that they are trying their best to get it.

    As for being sensitive about your NCU PhD, I never meant to attack you. I'm very aware of your situation and it seems that you have nothing to lose and much more to win. I was referring to some members that are planning to enroll in online programs and they seem to believe that negative comments are made just to keep people people away because of jealousy.
  19. b4cz28

    b4cz28 New Member

    I don't mean to pry, but do you list your CCU degree's? I would! They look better than the U of P AA.
  20. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    South University had AACSB as a requirement for full time positions and it lasted a short time. I think it is already gone. That raises the question: if AACSB is the cream-of-the-crop, would they will demand higher salaries ** and would the schools be willing to pay? By the way, understood about the sensitivity thing.

    **An AACSB salary survey revealed that the salaries range from Instructor at $63K to Professor at $111K a year with Assistant and Associate in the middle. I would assume a professor rank takes many years and a hell of a lot of work. That is not that high of a salary for something that could take 15 years or so to reach (guessing at the number of years). My sister’s boyfriend was a cop (in NJ) and made over $100K a year as a Lt. I know someone that in a NYC detective and they make $125K after something like 5 years. Now, more cops get shot at more than teachers (I hope) but these AACSB Professor salaries are not incredible high. Where is the real benefit? But that is a whole other conversation and that is based on a paycheck only. I am obviously money driven :rolleyes:

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