Too many people with online DBAs and PhDs?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by RFValve, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Because it is probably the most common goal of someone seeking a PhD. I know MANY people with PhDs or in PhD programs. Family members, friends, acquaintances. The first time I ever "met" someone who was going for a PhD in a non-science subject for a reason OTHER than seeking a tenure-track position was HERE. In fact, other than for personal satisfaction, I am still trying to wrap my head around why someone would go for a non-science PhD for reasons other than a tenure track position.

    I can tell you this, while UoP and Cappella may not be well respected PhD programs, at least they ARE PhD programs. You CAN get a tenure track position with a degree from, or enrollment in, a UoP PhD program. I've seen it. Is the university going to be a top tier research giant? No. However, 4th and 3rd tier schools still have some of the sweetest deals for tenure I've seen, and I would be happy to have them if I was in teaching.
  2. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    Don't worry. Another effect of the huge increase in online PhDs is that it puts a lot of downward pressure on instructors with NO PhDs. My suspicion, based on my observations at universities, is that it is going to be increasingly difficult for folks who are not PhDs and are not in PhD programs to get full-time teaching positions at universities.

    While a traditional PhD may be better than an online PhD. The online PhD is almost always better than NO PhD. From my observation, without a doctorate (ANY DOCTORATE), the options for an academic career in a university as anything other than adjunct or full-time temporary are pretty limited, even in low tier schools.

    Here are some of the limitations to teaching WITHOUT a doctorate in a university:
    1) virtually NO CHANCE of becoming a college dean (except in an emergency interim capacity)
    2) VERY little chance of becoming a department chair (except in an emergency interim capacity).
    3) VERY little chance of making full professor
    4) little chance of making tenure
    5) little chance of even being offered a tenure track position.

    Now, for all of these things at least it is possible to achieve them with an online doctorate (in fact, i have seen most of them accomplished by folks with distance learning doctorates).

    Remember folks, in many cases, accrediting bodies place a limit on the proportion of professors without doctorates that can teach in a department. In fact, I know of multiple cases where the accrediting bodies have refused to allow a department to develop a master's program because there were not enough doctorally prepared faculty. I guarantee you that these thoughts go through the mind of the dean and department chair when they a deciding between hiring a person with only a Masters and a person with a masters AND a PhD from UoP.
  3. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    Would you believe to increase adjunct options in the future and just to see if I could do it?

    When I completed my MS-ITM, I thought that I wanted to adjunct to make a few extra bucks to buy a certain type of car (the one of my dreams). I thought if I get a PhD I would have more teaching options down the line. I asked the HR director if I could use tuition assistance money for a PhD and she said no one in the company has ever asked that and was not sure - I seen that as a challenge. I made a formal request, got it approved, got started, a year later got an adjunct gig, got a second adjunct gig, test drove the "car of my dreams" and hated it, kept teaching, and putting the extra cash toward paying off my condo.
  4. distancedoc2007

    distancedoc2007 New Member

    Pah! I wouldn't give it another thought. The bottom line is that if you have a doctorate and the guy next to you doesn't, he will be the one worrying not you. I say get it, forget it, and move onto the next horizon.
  5. makana793

    makana793 New Member

    Perhaps instead of measuring the sheer number or volume of online Ph.D or DBA graduates there should be some type of study of what these individuals are actually doing with their degrees. Maybe they're saturating the market, I don't know. But we all have different intentions and goals when pursuing a doctorate degree. What you do with your degree is more important. Many people on these forums are already established in their careers and have no intention of teaching in a prestigious institution.
  6. makana793

    makana793 New Member

    I know a guy with a graduate degree from Cornell waiting tables. I think the economy is really affecting everyone.
  7. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    I know (of) a girl who has a BA and MA from Boston University that is a stripper :D. Then again, she probably gets paid more now than her professors do.
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There is also the timing issue. You got lucky to get online adjunct gigs with your degree but these are getting harder to find even with a doctorate. I teach at Devry and now even faculty managers tend to have PhDs. I have also have noticed a huge trend towards online adjuncts with PhDs with most of them with doctorates from online for profit schools. However, these are people like that started with a master and went for a PhD as a way to secure more work but I wonder if the new PhDs are finding work. Devry for example has a hiring freeze for IT faculty as they have just too many so I suppose the othe schools might be in the same boat.

    The main issue is that the tuition fee of this online doctorates is just increasing every year. The question is the ROI of this type of programs that seem to be good only for adjunct and university administration positions.
    If you are able to get your company pay for your Phd and get some extra money teaching online, this is fine but most are not that lucky and dish out the the 60-70K for a degree that might not be giving nothing back.
  9. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Here's another depressing thought. I think we are in a little bit of an online doctorate bubble right now. Many people are going for DL doctorates and will soon discover that the doctorate does not do for them what they hoped. I'm concerned that when enough people find out that a doctorate is not what it used to be, the demand will drop considerably for online doctorates. When that happens, many of the online adjunct jobs will disappear. The undergrad adjunct jobs will still be there, but there will be a glut of people trying to get those jobs. It's going to be like the teacher situation right now; too many qualified people competing for a very few jobs.
  10. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Actually, the demand for online education is higher than ever. I think online adjunct positions will just keep increasing. The demand for online doctorates will be still there but not as much as the demand for bachelor or masters degrees.

    The demand for online doctorates will remain strong for university administrators or community college teachers as long as their employers are willing to pay for the tuition fees or for the extra level of education.

    The future of online doctorates in still uncertain to me, it might just become the next MBA and this will drive even more credential creep or it might become a speciality degree for some specific type of professionals.
  11. makana793

    makana793 New Member

    In terms of online instruction and teaching opportunities I think we're also overlooking the most obvious: work experience. Many adjuncts are chosen strictly because they have many years of applicable work experience. IMHO I think this is where many traditional universities fall short. Some instructors have zero years of work experience in the field but have many years of academia and quality ph.d's to back it up. I guess its a trade off.
  12. PatsGirl1

    PatsGirl1 New Member

    Are you talking about my cousin? ;)

    No, seriously, she went to BU for B.A./M.A. and U of M Ann Arbor for an M.S. and she is um...solicited for her services for nights of companionship. She makes about 6x what I do.
  13. JeepNerd

    JeepNerd New Member

    I think there are a couple assumptions here that need to be thought about:

    First - Is "Resumebucket" a place that a research oriented PhD would post up their resume? IE, the reason you may not be seeing the B&M PhD on there is because they are posting at education oriented sites instead!? They do not have "resumes" but instead CVs!?!

    Whereas Resumebucket probably DOES attract the non-research oriented Doctor who actually works in a field, and lists their doctorate as a matter of fact. They are not really expecting schools to be looking for them THERE.


    Second assumption, I hear ROI all the time... my best year of teaching was approx 50k of income. That was pre-recession, and classes are starting to come less often, etc.

    I am "guessing" that part of this is due to student shrinkage (less students = less classes and therefore the classes ARE going to the staff they want to keep around the the Doctors!)

    If this trend continues and I go to zero teaching income (no doctorate) then my ROI would be as much as 50k per year!?

    50k / say 80k for Walden PhD in Accounting is a 62.5% return on my investment in the FIRST year!!

    TO be a bit more conservative, lets just assume I max back out, so that adds only 20k to my current teaching income. Or that the person who gets their doctorate ONLY makes another 20k per year in teaching...

    20k/80k = 25% ROI

    Large Cap stock market has earned traditionally approx 12.x% ROI per year including dividends and capital gain. (Immediate / dividend income is approx 3-5% ROI)

    Does it make sense to borrow money and put it in Large Caps? Probably not, but in theory if you are borrowing against your home (equity line) at 6% and are getting a 12% return that is worth it. (Lots of other factors make it NOT worth it generally)

    Borrowing money at 6-12% and getting a 25% ROI?? Or 50% or 100%?

    I would agree that getting a PhD with NO intent to make additional money (by teaching or because of work advancement) does not make a lot of sense.

    But for those who want a GOOD side income....?

    My MBA, AppState, 1996, cost me $3500, approx 5k with books, throw in a few hundred more for passing the CPA exam My ROI is INSANE...

    Just really wonder about the "no-ROI" arguments?!?
  14. truckie270

    truckie270 New Member

    I am not looking for a tenure-track position. With a Doctorate I can make more adjuncting for several schools than I could as a tenure-track faculty as one.
  15. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    Of course your doctorate is also from a traditional state university, even if the delivery method has online elements.

    This (IMO) makes a big difference.

    A CV with Valdosta State on it does not raise red flags like a CV with UOP, Walden, etc.
  16. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    My MS-ITM cost $6,750 ($750*9 classes) and I can make that in one semester teaching online as an adjunct. Not too bad...
  17. Arch23

    Arch23 New Member

    Keep in mind that this phenomenon doesn't necessarily apply to the rest of the world. The U.S. seems to be particularly strong in having too many NARROW-MINDED people who think that the only legitimate way to study is via butt-in-the-seat mode. Talk about living in DINOSAUR LAND when science and technology have advanced so much that one can actually learn... (brace yourselves for a very new discovery!)... online!
  18. StefanM

    StefanM New Member

    I agree with you here. Of course, the euro-style doctorates are generally by research only, which negates the need to have physical classes.
  19. Cyber

    Cyber New Member

    It really depends on where that CV is presented. Ofcourse, pursuing a teaching position at a B&M institution with an online degree from an online school is craziness, but, most of us with internet degrees are quite aware of the limitations and utility of the degree. On the other hand, there are lots of jobs that will hire someone with an online degree as long as the school is accredited. Besides, many employers are signing special deals with online schools to provide discounted tuition to their employees who attend them, instead of them paying out fortunes to B&M schools with no clear ROI or proof that online is inferior. What I'm noticing more is that folks with degrees from B&M talk down online degrees, and they hope and wish those degrees are never accepted fully...........just so they feel better. My online master degree landed me a very good job, and no, I do not intend on teaching at a B&M school, so no academic egghead will have a chance to thumb his or her nose on my degree.

    The bottom line" if B&M degree works for you, go that route. If an online degree works, there's nothing wrong with that route either - and all degrees from both B&M and online schools are good and the same.
  20. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I agree with you here. The sample is not really a representation of doctorate holders population. However, I was not expecting to see that the vast majority of doctoral holders were from online schools. There is also the assumption that B&M doctorate holders might have no problems getting work and just don't post their resumes in places like resumebuckets.

    As for the ROI, I don't know if I agree with you here. In the past you were only required a Master to teach accounting as an adjunct. I remember that my accounting classes were taught by CPAs with no master's about 20 years ago. Now it seems that you need a PhD just to get some adjunct gigs. It seems that you just need to keep dishing money out for something that you already know and been doing for a while. It is the same issue with certifications, with so many CPAs now they need CPAs with CISSP, CIA, CMA, CFA and so on.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2010

Share This Page