To Oregon and Michigan droll lists.

Good quality move Alan, thankfulness.

Okay, one is shut down, let’s see the other.

 

Concerned am I as looky likey readable not posts spreading seems virus.

 

Tee Hee! Yoda must be lurking nearby.......

 

survey

I am doing a little research. I am interested in how individuals define a "substandard education" as it applies to colleges and universities granting degrees. I hear this terminology quite often and would like some clarification as how this term is used. After your choice, please give your own definition of a "substandard education" as it relates to the quality of an education offered by a school. Please make it brief in a sentence or two.

If you would please reply. Only one response per person using the numerical code listed beside the definition that closely matches how you define a "substandard education".

A "substandard education" is:

1. one in which requires little academic work, i.e. reading of an assigned text and requiring only a term paper or the taking of an exam for credits in courses to earn a degree.

2. one in which requires little academic work, i.e. requiring only a term paper or exam for credit and the use of work experience in a portfolio assessment converted to college level credit to earn a degree.

3. one in which you show what you know about a subject for college level credit by taking a multiple choice exam for each subject area and receiving credit for a degree.

Thank you

 

Hi Mike

Your post is interesting. Perhaps you could tell us who you are and why you ask this question?

 

Hi Mike,

I don't like any of your three definitions of a substandard degree. The reason is because no where do you mention anything close to something like:

A substandard degree is a degree that can be earned without showing that the standard amount of information was learned for that degree.

 

survey

Greetings:

Thanks for your definition of a substandard education.

I am a student working on my PhD in Ed Adm at UNCCH. I have been doing quite a bit of research in the area of DL and traditional education. I have come across the term "substandard education" within many discussions on web forums and in books on education. There does not appear to be an agreed upon definition of what a "substandard education" means. The term is used with a variety of meanings or assumed meanings in various readings.

I am working on a project for completion of one of my courses this semester that requires a quasi research paper on a specified topic. I pulled DL out of the hat. Lucky me. huh?

With this being a forum for DL I thought I might get some good feedback on this topic. I am also posting on other sites as well as mass mailing to randomly chosen professors of various universities in NC.

I know the three definitions I submitted may not be the best desription of the term. I based the choices on what information I gathered from the sources listed above. That is why I asked for individual's interpretation of the term "substandard education".

Thanks for helping

 

survey

Greetings Mr. Huffman:

I appreciate your definiton. Thanks. However, the question now raised is what is a "standard amount of education" for a degree. I am not attempting to be contrary. I have to look at this at the scientific level by defining the term in all aspects to the best of my abilities. What is a "standard amount of education" for a course or a program? This is what I have to determine. This is not going to be easy. Personally, I dread this assignment. I will now have to work on this. Thanks Mr. Huffman. This may be a point my professor focuses on.

Mike

 

Re: survey

Hi Mike,

There are those who feel Bethany Divinity College and Seminary is a substandard school. Of course, some even refer to it as a degree mill because it is not accredited.

1. I engaged in a substantial amount of work including reading numerous texts and published articles in addition to the required reading and engaged in hours upon hours of research.

2. I had to intern for one year at a Christian counseling center being critiqued by social workers, mental health counselors, psychologists, and psychiatrists.

3. Multiple choice, fill in the blanks, essay questions, critiques of numerous theories and philosophies of therapeutic treatment.

I feel my Ph.D. in pastoral counseling was more than an adequate education, an education that prepared me well enough to sit for and pass national and professional credentialing exams and work in mental health and addictions agencies with outstanding performance evaluations each and every evaluative period.

As a matter of fact, the psychiatrist on staff at my last place of employment encouraged me to enter private practice on a full tme basis.

Admittedly, I went above and beyond the prescribed requirements for my degree. However, shouldn't anyone earning a degree always do so?

Thanks!

 

For what it is worth here is my definition of substandard school.

substandard school = A school that requires some work, but does not meet the minimum standards associated with the majority of universities. These schools do not set or adhere to standard requirements, have bad operating practices, and avoid academic oversight.

substandard degree = A degree that does not require a minimum normative standard.

I would say a "standard minimum amount of education" would be:

60 semester hours for an associate's degree.
120 semester hours for a bachelor's degree.
Bachelor's + 30 for a master's degree.

Schools would also be substandard IMO if they give credits without assessing, verifying, or evaluating experience credit with an objective process to determine competency in the subject.

 

I don’t get it.

If a “degree” does not meet the requirements or expected standards, then it isn’t really a degree (what most individuals expect it to represent), is it? In other words, the substandard “degree” (read a book, print your own at home would qualify) is posing as the real thing, and the entities issuing such “degrees” are simply either victimizing people or enlisting co-conspirators. Any way you slice it, the entities, such as Kennedy-Western University, are degree mills. And a "substandard" degree (despite fooling many an employer) is not a degree at all.

Moreover, let me repeat this: Degree mills such as Kennedy-Western University that require a minimal or “substandard” amount of work are more insidious than the blatant degree mill operators that simply sell a degree for no work whatsoever. The latter enlists co-conspirators into an elaborate scam; the former truly victimizes.

 

Which is why, if enforced, the disclosure requirement is so good. It renders "degrees" from outfits like K-WU nearly useless. Oh, I imagine a few graduates in a few situations will be given an opportunity to talk their way out of it when an employer sees it on a resume, but I woudl think in most cases the resume would end up in the "do not invite to an interview" pile.

Further, such a requirement would render someone useless to my company, which publishes our resumes to potential customers. There is no way we'd send out a consultant's resume with that kind of disclaimer! We would never get any business!

 

Which people? What agenda?

 

You can have a substandard school, but you cannot have a substandard degree.

Degrees are proxies. They testify to the academic accomplishments of the holder. If they cannot do that--because the holder did not complete a course of study comparable to what would be expected in earning such a degree, then the degree is a lie. It is a fake.

This is the problem with all unaccredited schools: there is no way to determine on the surface whether or not degrees from those schools are legitimately earned. As Bill Dayson has noted, the onus is on the unaccredited school to demonstrate its sufficiency. Very few unaccredited schools do this. (There are, of course, some splendid exceptions.) Newer schools might get a pass for awhile as they pursue accreditation. But that's about it.

A car with no engine isn't a car. A degree from an unrecognized school isn't a degree.

 

I agree. Which is why I said recently here that in my opinion a substandard school or degree is not legitimate. My opinion on this has changed with education, and more consideration.

That is hard to argue against, but I still see a degree mill or diploma mill as one that sells a degree, and a substandard school as one that requires work, but not to the normative level. If you look at it in black and white then you are correct, but I do see a bit of a grey area with which substandard fits in my opinion.

Maybe you should ask some questions, or make some comments here. Degreeboard is giving the Kennedy-Western University representative the floor, so it would be a good chance for anyone to ask questions, and learn more about the operating practices of KWU.

 

Hi PLC

It doesn't appear either the good Dr. LJ or the PR person for K-W want to answer even the easy questions. Imagine if they got thrown some hard ones?!

 

like...

...explaining Lt. Cmdr. Gelzer's experiences with K-W, as described in the Senate Govt. Affairs Committee hearings last spring.

G

 

I suspect the KWU rep. to answer the questions, but my bet is that none of the answers will be specific, and they will avoid any follow up. David Gering was brought in for damage control after the senate hearings, and he is doing an admirable job considering what he was handed. I think he will do the best he can without exposing too much about KWU. I would hate to be in his position.

I applaud the moderators for setting this up and expect that Gering will get a fair shake at defending KWU, and that they will allow any questions or comments that are appropriate.

 

Well it certainly is interesting, but if it just turns into a PR piece for K-W it is merely wasted band-width. If it is part of a fair debate or if questions are truthfully and honestly answered, I would totally agree with you. Considering Gering is a PR person that doesn't seem likely, but who knows?

 

survey

Greetings again:

I appreciate the discussions regarding substandard schools. This is not the intent of my research. What I am in search of is what is considered a "substandard education" that results in a student receiving a degree.

At this point in my research, I am not attempting to infer a relationship between particular schools and substandard education. The research is to attempt to establish what is considered an acceptable definition for the term "substandard education". I am expanding my n for my random selection across the country (USA).

For some reason this has developed into a debate over a particular school. In the scientific approach, I can not allow personal biases to interfere with my study.

If you are willing to help me out I appreciate it. If not, I will move on to other resources. Thanks for those of you who gave me feedback.

Mike