To go for a PHD or not

Yeah, I understand, but didn't I express my own sense of balance? Me and others? I can't do it just for me; it has to have a place in the bigger picture.

I'm glad we are discussing these intrinsic motivations for completing doctoral studies, as they are ethereal at times.

Dave

 

Hi. Understood. Fair enough... I don't see what happens behind the scenes. Thanks.

Dave

 

Some good replies here. I am dealing with the same issues as you did. If strictly from a financial view it doesn't make sense at all. But for self-satisfaction it might. As it stands now most likely I will not go the DBA at Nova Southeastern route.

I will be going to Japan in 6-8 months for at least a month or maybe even longer. The trip will be a vacation and tour of the islands, esp Okinawa. It will not be cheap!

From a financial ROI standpoint it will give a huge negative ROI. But from an enjoyment and personal growth standpoint it will reap huge rewards.

 

I decided not to pursue a doctorate several years ago, when I completed my masters.

I didn't need it occupationally and a change of occupation wasn't in the cards. I wasn't really interested in parading around as 'The Great Scholar' or in boasting a cool quasi-aristocratic title. I couldn't imagine a Ph.D. making me of any more use to my fellows than I already am. (Or more accurately, aren't.)

The one consideration that really did move me was my curiosity. I love studying and will probably study until the day I die. There are ideas, questions and subjects that intrigue me. The more I investigate them, the more arcane those interests are, the scarcer useful information becomes, and peers to talk to become few and far between. That's always been my primary motivation for pursuing DL. And at some point, the questions I'm asking don't have clear and uncontroversial answers any longer. I find myself approaching the boundaries of knowledge. A doctoral program could provide life-support, supplying me with necessary background, companionship and support out there at the edge of space.

But in terms of time, money and commitment, it was hard to justify. And frankly, I wanted more freedom and autonomy than a doctoral program would give me. While I'll probably never teach a college class in my lifetime, I do feel qualified to be my own supervising professor. It's time to follow my own star.

So I've turned to libraries. There are a number of academic ones in my area that I can use. They are my free universities and reading books is like taking DL classes at no cost. (Why pay thousands of dollars to do something that I would have done anyway, when I don't need the credit?) And I've found that I'm not the only person in this situation by any means, that there are a wide variety of special interest groups out there to join, even sophisticated non-credit courses to take, all for nominal fees.

So I decided to be satisfied with my masters degree and to go with the unconventional alternatives. Any formal commitments I make at this point would probably be to religious practice, not to degree programs.

 

Well said, Bill. Some types of systematic study can be done alone... No doubt.

Dave

 

I'm also in IT management and must say that the ROI of a PhD is not that great. My DBA got few more dollars at some places where I teach but don't know if it was really worth the trouble. I completed few Microsoft certifications and those got me far more teaching gigs than the PhD. A Microsoft certified trainer makes about the same money than a PhD in IT management so if you like teaching and training that might be a more cost effective way to go than the PhD.

In few words, the PhD might be only worth it if you could land a tenure track position in the 100K range but that rarely happens with a low tier PhD distance or non distance.

The other reason to get an online PhD is if you enjoy online teaching. There are many online teaching gigs that require a PhD. However, think about it as supplement cash but not a way to pay your bills as you cannot really make a career as an online teacher unless you want to teach 10 courses per term and become a teaching machine.

 

re: should I get a PhD?

Here's what I tell my students: unless there's really nothing else in life that you want to do, don't try to get a PhD. The process sucks.

Even after completing all the coursework, fulfilling the research requirements (languages, computer skills, etc), passing the comprehensive exam, and getting an approved dissertation proposal, 50% still drop-out.

A PhD is like no other education. It's just you, and you alone, struggling to finish that dissertation. Even when done, there's no guarantee it will be accepted. Nobody helps you. Nobody understands.

I would consider it very carefully if my career goals require a PhD. If not, I certainly wouldn't consider it.

If you're thinking about an acdemic career, I would give that lots of thought also. Getting a PhD sucks. Getting a tenure-track academic job sucks. Getting tenure sucks.

Once you have tenure, of course, you basically can quit working or just do as you like. The problem is getting there.

 

I assume you earned a PhD. Where did you get it? Why did you get it?

 

This post is a home run:

This post is a home run. VERY well written!!!

 

If this type of posting continues I will not read this anymore. I'm gettin' scared

 

Genius.

Dave

 

This post hits home more than any other I've read in this thread.

I agree with BH - ROI should have nothing to do with it. I pursued my Ph.D. because:

1. I had fun getting my M.A. and wasn't yet bored enough to quit.
2. One idea I had for my M.A. thesis was so cool that I didn't want to waste it on the M.A. - I felt it would make a better doctoral dissertation (and it did).
3. I wanted to teach at the college level. Never wanted tenure (I hate politics), but simply wanted to call my own shots as a college-level instructor.

And in the end run, earning my Ph.D. was easier than learning how to drive a tractor-trailer (which I did several years after getting a doctorate).

Sad to say, I never accomplished my goal of teaching college... (Big drum roll...) I went straight to teaching graduate school - at two of them for the next six years, plus the usual journal articles, endowed lectureships, etc. And four books, two of them signed with major publishers (Moody Press and Baker Book House). And it was a blast - until I got bored with it. (It became a matter of "been there, done that...)

When BH writes, "If I had not gone ahead and done it, I would have always regretted not trying." I can identify with that - not in terms of the doctorate, but in terms of driving trucks. I remember the day I decided to do it. One of my academic deans called and asked what I wanted to teach the following semester, a publisher called to ask if I wanted to write a book based on a course I had just completed, and I sat back and literally said, "Been there, done both. What do I really want to do?" The answer, "Learn to drive a tractor-trailer," came out of nowhere, and I dismissed it. For about five minutes - then I realized that if I didn't do it I'd kick myself in the ass ten years later and say, "If only I had..."

But doing it? It was harder than any of the three degrees I had earned - they were a breeze. So I determined to work toward mastering it with the same in-spite-of-the-difficulty mindset with which many of y'all are pursuing a doctorate. And never went back to teaching or writing. (And, after ten years of driving, still haven't gotten bored with it.)

Bottom line: If you want to do a doctorate, the best reason to do it is for the fun of it. Just for the halibut, for lack of a better term. If you've got a goal, that's cool, too - but you don't need one. But do count the cost, not only in terms of money but in terms of time, energy, and sweat.

Would I go for a doctorate today? No hu-way. Two reasons:

1. I decided that I like being average. For me, the ivory tower was borrrrrrring. I had no desire to play the politics of academe (and never had to do so), although some people do have that desire (with which I have no problem). After years of standing out from the crowd, it's nice to be able to be part of the crowd (and it's a very diverse crowd in which I've met lots of academics that got just as bored with the system).

2. When I did my Ph.D. in Union, higher education was truly non-traditional, creative, mutually supportive, non-competitive (the only person against whom I've ever competed is me), and creative as hell. Today, even Union (which is still non-profit) has become a carbon copy of its proprietary (profit-making) counterparts like NCU, Walden, Capella, etc. Online education has become dumbed down (no, kiddies, I won't engage in a debate on that - just take it as an opinion), and more programs are by rote.

So, ya want a doctorate? Go for it. Or not. Take it as a challenge, or do it just for the fun of it. Or don't bother. But don't let yourself get in the position of saying, ten years down the road, "If only I had..." And if you do decide to go for it, the most important thing in getting through a doctoral program is your mindset.

Final note: I don't know Dave, and have no reason to trash the dude. I do know me again, and second Bruce's comments: me again is one of the most credible members who has ever been on this forum - he's one of the good guys. Even if he did choose NCU...

 

Perhaps "me again" has lost some credibility with others by leveling personal attacks, hiding behind an anonymous identity, and posting a fair bit of drivel... If all of that behavior is in the past, well, then, fine and dandy with me.

Dave

 

re: to PhD or not to PhD

I previously stated: "If you're thinking about an academic career, I would give that lots of thought also. Getting a PhD sucks. Getting a tenure-track academic job sucks. Getting tenure sucks."

I got my doctorate from a big B&M school in a traditional program.

Lest someone think that I am especially bitter about getting a PhD because of career disappointment, let me assure you this is not the case. I got my degree, then a job and tenure at a large, non-research oriented, masters degree granting state university. It's just that it's a dreadful set of experiences. The advice I give is: don't do it, unless there's really nothing else you can or want to do.

For those of you considering an academic career, the institution where I work, which has over 1300 full-time faculty, has never hired a tenure-track faculty member with a distance-based doctorate. Possibly, there may be some adjuncts here with distance degrees, although I have never heard of any.

On this board and others, I have read of faculty with distance-based doctorates being hired on the tenure-track in IT, CS, and businesss because of the shortage of faculty in those areas. I don't know how common it is. Personally, I know of no cases; however I am not in IT, CS, or business.

If one is content to be adjunct faculty, with low pay, job-insecurity, no benefits, usually no desk, much less an office, probably having a distance-based doctorate wouldn't hurt and might help. But generally, to be an adjunct, only a masters is required anyway.

 

Not longer the case in IT or CS. With the decrease of enrollments in these areas, it is easier to get a tenure track in Economics or Geography than in IT. Too many PhDs out there and few positions. At some schools where I teach, they haven't hired Computer Science or IS faculty in years due to the lack of enrollment.

 

What about those with a distance master's degree as the person that posted this original post? The reality is that if one has a DL master's, the distance PhD is not a bad idea for adjunct in order to stand out a bit from the crowed.

 

Sometimes it's not all about money. There are many qualitative benefits that may stem from having a doctorate that you cannot place a hard value to.

 

How does cash inflow fit into the equation of hiring online adjuncts?

There are some fields that have a glut of online adjuncts with Masters degrees, which makes it difficult to break into the field of online teaching. Having a doctorate is definitely a way to distinguish yourself from the herd and causes schools to roll out the red carpet for your employment with them.

As I understand it, all regionally accredited schools must have a certain percentage of instructors with doctoral degrees to maintain their accreditation. As a result, they may hire you simply because you have a doctorate, regardless of your ability or inability to teach online. Those with doctoral degrees help regionally accredited colleges and universities to maintain their accreditation, which helps to maintain an inflow of aspiring tuition paying students, which helps to maintain an incoming cash flow, which equals money!!! $$$.

 

Do you have any thoughts as to why schools in general are so incompetent in the selection, training, and motivation of doctoral students?

(I ask this somewhat loaded question, because in almost any other endeavor a process that is no better than a coin toss would be considered to be a colossal failure. Accordingly, blame and/or responsibility would be assigned and distributed... That is, heads would roll, so to speak.)

Dave

 

Wow, 50% ain't bad..... in Europe. I would estimate the completion rate in most European countries at 20-30%, based on my observations.