Theology and Liverpool

I have been informed that I have now completed the requirements for the degree of MTh from Liverpool University. This was achieved by studying at Chester College (and only counts as distance learning if you take into account the distance I had to travel to weekly classes for two years).

The formal award of the degree will be next March in Chester Cathedral.

Malcolm S Jenner

 

Malcolm

First, congratulations.

What are the requirements and prerequisites for the MTh at Liverpool? In SATS schools in the USA and Canada the ThM or Mth has as prerequisite the three year MDiv grad degree. That is, the ThM is four years of grad studies. Mine included two languages and thesis (dissertation). Is it the same at Liverpool?

 

Malcolm,

Congratulations on this achievement! I hope that I will soon be completing my University of Wales MTh through Spurgeon's College in London. Judging from my own experience, you must feel quite relieved and pleased to have reached this point.

Bill,

The following link provides information about the Chester College MTh:
http://www.chester.ac.uk/postgraduate/2003/apptheol.html

Blessings!

Cory Seibel

 

Well done, Malcolm!

 

This is an MTh in "Applied Theology", and so does not have any specific language requirements. Entry is a UK bachelor's degree in theology (roughly equivalent to an MDiv without the pastoral/ministerial aspects, i.e. purely academic). (In my case I was accepted with a Cambridge Diploma in Religious Studies - same level as a Bachelor's degree but only about half the content.) Duration is the same as any other UK Master's, i.e. the equivalent of three semesters of full-time study. In my case the six taught modules (half of my programme) took two years, and it has taken three years for me to compete my dissertation. Modules taken had to include at least one in biblical studies (I took two) and at least one in doctrine as well as one in research methods. The others that I took were in philosophy of religion (something I intend to carry on with and which underlay much of my dissertation) and liturgy (one of my long term interests).

Malcolm

 

Malcolm

Thanks for taking the time to explain the difference between the US and UK ThM.

As I understand you, you are saying that one who has a UK BA in Theology has covered roughly the equivalent in 'academics' as the US student who has done a 30 semester unit major in theology during his US BA and also has done 60 semester units in Theology and Biblical related studies in his MDiv. Hmmm, hard to believe! You are saying one with a UK BA in Theology has finished 90 semester hours of Theology ard directly related studies ; is that right? The result seems to be that a UK Mth=the four year USA ThM... I find this difficult to conceive!

You are also saying, I believe, that it is not just the amount of work that is equal between the UK BA and the USA MDiv in Theology, it is also the level. So the one with a UK BA in Theology should be able to contrast, eg, the Christological trends in the first 6 centuries of the church, or compare Barth with Moltmann, or take a particular position on a Scripture and defend well that position. The latter may be difficult without the use of the Biblical languages if done at the graduate level. These types of things are suitable expectations for one with 90 hours of Christian Theology, are they not? I recall in the MDiv in 91 or 92 being grilled in a group by the Systematic Theology prof in such as Apollinarianism and monothelitism and in the Greek exegesis of Romans class on the arguments for the original punctuation of 9:5- which has Christological significance- and in an English Bible course on I Corinthians having to present a lecture on the six opinions on Spirit baptism and defending one...Ah, I enjoyed those days!


I suppose I am beating this to death, but here's the deal: As an armchair critic of theological programs I wish degrees to be somewhat equivalent. A PhD should resemble another PhD in expectations, for example! I wish the US were as the UK, one level of masters, as you say. As a teacher, I am interested in outcome learning. As a student I have resented completing three hierarchical masters in Theology but never either having the opportunity or the determination to do a B/M doctorate in Theology and I knew nothing of DL a year or so ago. As now an old man, I have nothing to do but grump away!

So I'm here ignobly harping at your fine achievemevt. I'm very sorry Malcolm, God bless,

 

Bill,

I think the answer to your various "equivalency" questions is "yes." As the only American MTh student at Spurgeon's in London, my experience has been that my undergraduate preparation for the MTh was far less adequate than that of my British peers. Their undergraduate preparation seems to have been very much on the level of MDiv work. This reality is evidenced in the fact that Spurgeon's has an exchange program with Central Seminary in Kansas City, whereby Spurgeon's bachelor's students can spend a semester taking MDiv-level courses at Central, and Central MDiv students can spend a semester taking BD courses at Spurgeon's. Fortunately, I am a good enough student to have been able, for the most part, to have overcome the gap in my own theological preparation. In actuality, though the MTh is only equivalent to a one-year full-time program, the level of academic work I've been expected to produce far surpasses what has been demanded of my friends in American MDiv programs. If you ask the professors at Spurgeon's, they will suggest that the MTh in Applied Theology most closely parallels the American DMin program.

Cory Seibel

 

languages in yr doctoral program

Bill,

Good point on the need for the ability to work in the primary languages (Greek, Hebrew) in advanced programs. I am sure that Unizul requires thorough preparation in Greek and Hebrew.

Did Unizul (as most US schools do) require the 2 modern research languages as well? What did Unizul require as far as proof of your ability to use secondary research languages (German, French)? Did they demand you complete an exam on theological German & French, or was it merely presupposed that you would be citing works written in those languages in your bibliography?

Dave

 

Re: languages in yr doctoral program

 

Bill,

I appreciate your inquisitiveness. In referencing your concerns about equivalency, I was not wishing to speak directly to "credit hours," or anything of that nature. At a number of points, you seem to jump on apparent "inconsistencies." Of course, there are no "Platonic forms" to which academic systems must correspond, and, as of yet, the UN has not made any demands about global uniformity in the structure and progression of theological education. When considering two academic systems that have not necessarily evolved with a view to mutual articulation, clear consistencies should not be expected. For instance, my reference to the MTh in Applied Theology being comparable to the American DMin has less to do with precise equivalencies of chronological location in the course of one's education than with curricular focus and academic rigour. Furthermore, in terms of chronological location in the course of one's education, to compare the MTh to the DMin, as opposed to the ThM, is not that much of a difference. The ThM commonly is a 30 hour post-MDiv program (correct?), while the DMin commonly is a 36 hour post-MDiv program. While these two are quite different from one another in curricular focus, etc., they are not entirely unlike one another in terms of prerequisites (specifically, the MDiv) and duration (in cr. hours, that is, even though the DMin commonly is completed on a part-time basis over the course of 3+ years). In the British system, the DMin has only recently begun being offered in a few institutions. Interestingly enough, the entry requirements for UK DMin programs are pretty much identical to those for an MTh in Applied Theology: a bachelor's in theology/divinity and a couple of years of practical experience. Even the DMin offered by Highlands Theological College of Scotland in cooperation with Reformed Theological Seminary in the US (as you know, a fine US institution with standard American admission requirements) requires only a bachelor's in theology for entry.

I must admit that I am not particularly interested in questions of whether the British bachelor's has precise equivalency to the American MDiv, or whether it equals .718% MDiv, or whether ThM=MTh, or any such thing. Rather, my interest lies fundamentally in the fact that, in my experience, British BD/BA graduates demonstrate a level of academic preparedness comparable to many (perhaps most) American MDiv graduates. You seem not to place much stock in the relationship between Spurgeon's and Central. However, you and I both know that an ATS-accredited institution would not be quick to established a relationship with a foreign institution whereby they accept an entire semester's worth of credit toward an MDiv unless they felt that this credit was being earned at a comparable academic level (in large part because they must answer to ATS for striking such an arrangement); furthermore, they would not be likely to invite foreign students enrolled in bachelor's programs elsewhere to spend a full-load semester at their institution unless they felt there was good reason to expect these students to be qualified to perform at an academic level similar to their own students. Of course, much of the perspective I share here is "anecdotal;" however, based upon my familiarity with "the system" in both the US and UK, I would suggest that it is quite fair to describe this experience as "representative."

It is not uncommon for British bachelor's degree holders to be accepted directly into MPhil/PhD research programs. My ethics professor, for instance, completed a PhD on Barth (which was subsequently published) at the highly reputable King's College, London, after having matriculated into the program with only a BD (his first degree). He continues to perform as an exceptional scholar. Some of my other professors have a similar background. Yet, at Spurgeon's, American students are only considered if they have completed a master's like the MA with thesis or the MDiv (as a minimum). ThM applicants are preferred because the college seems to find American MDiv graduates generally to be lacking in preparedness to engage in research.

Several differences between the US and UK systems may contribute to this situation, including academic demands, curricular structure, pedagogical method, etc. One important consideration is that both the British BD and the American MDiv are rightly viewed as "first degrees" in theology. The BD generally does not entail 45+ hours of "general eds," as is the case with an American program, but is rather 3+ years of solid and demanding theological education. The MDiv, in almost all cases, does not presuppose an undergraduate background in theology; while many students enter the MDiv with such a background, it is not required. An MDiv, therefore, historically has been a "first degree" in theology, which is why it used to bear the title "Bachelor of Divinity." Thus, it is fair to compair these two degrees as roughly equivalent, for their length and curricular focus are, indeed, comparable (even though I don't feel the need to make any claims as to their exact equivalency.) I'm sure you'd agree there is no doubt that British-trained folks are making a profound contribution to theological thought. Look at McGrath, Oliver O'Donovan, Packer, George Beasley-Murray, and umpteen others, none of whom progressed through the MDiv-ThM cycle.

When I contacted Dr. Song at Zululand about the prospect of enrolling in the DTh based upon my BS and Spurgeon's MTh, he expressed no reservations, but rather quite enthusiastically stated (being a Baptist himself) that the Spurgeon's heritage is a rich one to be celebrated. Essentially, regardless of how much this may offend one's sense of justice, Zululand and other institutions (including Stellenbosch, where I've been accepted) clearly deem my British MTh to be on equal footing with an American ThM as a basis for entry into a doctoral program.

So, these are just some loosely knit responses to the questions you raise. Hopefully, the general jist of my stance is somewhat clear.

Cory Seibel

 

Malcolm: Just wanted to reiterate my congratulations. If the University of Liverpool says you're an M.Th., you're a good enough M.Th. for me. Beyond ascertaining that the school is accredited (US terminology) and suitable for your needs, nobody need think either less or more of his degree because of the demands of other institutions or the exigencies of other systems of nomenclature.

 

Gentlemen~~

I just want to mention that the above statement seems to be a particularly strong argument for the congruency of the B.D. and the M.Div. in most respects. Strong, I say, because it focuses on equivalency as it is viewed by two accredited institutions at the "credit for credit" level. In other words, regardless of what one can do with a BD or an MDiv/ThM when it comes to getting into doctoral programs, the equivalency is seen here at the level of the minutae and not the general amount of competency that graduates in one country (or another) usually have.

To be honest, Bill, I think the american MDiv/ThM system is unjust. For me, it keeps students in class way too long. It's just a huge bummer to go through a whole MDiv. Especially for a Bible BA grad like me.

Cory, if you have anything more to say about the relations between Central and Spurgeon's I'd be interested in hearing.

Chris

 

Bill,

I have always thought that requiring students to know German and French for the PhD/ThD dissertation was arbitrary. If one is studying the inerrant word of God as the primary source for one’s research in Biblical Studies, then Greek and Hebrew are in order. The work of German and French theologians is secondary to your pursuits, so a translation from the original languages into English should be acceptable.

Perhaps it is only sour grapes on my part because of my limited cranial capacity. I dread the idea of becoming capable in using Greek and Hebrew (no mean task), and then turning around and learning French and relearning German, neither of which I would ever intend to use again.

Dave

 

congratulations

Malcolm,

Congratulations on making it to the next rung on the ladder. Any further academic plans?

 

Still more language griping

And for that matter...

Bill,

I would far rather spend the additional years required to learn French and German on developing my expertise within my field. This could take the form of deeper study in Greek and Hebrew, or branching out into Coptic and Aramaic, or further biblical studies. I do not mean to imply that I am at this point yet; my language training is still limited. I certainly do not advocate seeking the program with the least stringent admission requirements, but I think the current system is arbitrary. The most flexibility I have seen is in allowing the student to trade in French for Dutch or Latin, depending on dissertation topic.

Mind you, I have no intrinsic dislike of German or French. If I was pursuing a PhD in Church History, with my major area being the Swiss Reformation and my minor area the German Reformation, then German and French should take priority in that program. They would be the languages of my primary sources.

Ah, well.

Dave