The War on For-Profit Colleges

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Neuhaus, Apr 15, 2015.

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  1. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Undergraduate CJ programs are nothing but cash cows, and most people with a bachelor's in CJ end up underemployed. Full Sail is too expensive for the types of programs they offer, in my opinion.
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I know a few people (and have access to a whole lot more) who are musicians. I mean this is what they do for a living. Some of them went to college and studied XYZ. Some even studied music. All of them aspire to supporting themselves solely by their music and occasionally stoop to taking a "day job" in order to make ends meet during lean times. Most of these people are intelligent. Some are very intelligent and they all could do other things if they chose. For the most part the money means very little to them and while they all would certainly want more money, the purpose of that money, in their eyes, is so they could create music with less worry about paying the rent next month. Like the chefs in Neuhaus' scenario, we all know that there are celebrity musicians who make millions of dollars and we all know that there are less famous musicians who struggle to get by. In my experience, they would rather remain musicians, even lower paid ones, than "sell out" and take a permanent day job. They have a certain pride in being outside that mainstream crowd. Something that I might see as a success, a promotion, a raise, etc. they would likely see as a nail in the coffin. It has to do with having adopted a different set of values and in my experience it's true of many people. Musicians, artists, writers, lots of creative people have these sorts of values.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I agree. It's interesting to see all the coding schools opening up, I have the feeling that they are oversaturating the market for that sort of thing, so I'll go out on a limb and make a medium term prediction: As a result of this coding school mushrooming, to survive some of them will branch out and offer digital media programs, and those schools will drink Full Sail's milkshake.
     
  4. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member

    I also think that knowing who you are is important. Capella has for the most part, stayed true to it's roots (formerly known as the "Graduate School of America."). Over 70% of their students are graduate students: http://www.capellaeducation.com/files/doc_downloads/Capella_Education_FactSheet.pdf

    This has allowed Capella to (for the most part) avoid the negative publicity that has happened to UOP, Corinthian, etc.

    Shawn
     
  5. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I think it's a valid position to take. I am inclined to feel the same way. At the same time, if I were 18 years old and completely and utterly obsessed with working in the entertainment industry, I could see myself wanting to go out and use this as a way to go out and maybe help me develop a portfolio or grab a connection or two to try to break into the business. That may not be the smartest/most economical way to do it, but I grew up in Brooklyn and went to H.S. in Wilkes-Barre, PA. The idea of hauling across the country to beg for work in Hollywood would probably feel a lot less approachable. Maybe that's just a difference in marketing. I was never one of those single interest kids who had "dreams" and crap during school so it's hard for me to try to put myself in their shoes. All I've ever wanted to do was interesting work for a reasonable amount of pay.

    At the end of the day, as with anything, I like to quote one of Full Sail's more distinguished alumni (I forget his name and I'm too lazy right now to try to chase it down). He said they give you "a bunch of dots. And it's up to you to connect them."


    I'm fascinated by coding schools. Part of the reason is that not everyone is built to be a coder. So I wonder how those completion rates look. I also wonder how many other people feel a particular school is the "best" way in to a new field based largely upon marketing.
     
  6. Afterhours

    Afterhours Member

    Some are accredited, which is good. Others are not. Other than University of Phoenix, arguably the most high profile for profit school with the lowest retention and graduation rates, most people are not aware of the status of your college.

    Here who is aware. Graduate schools. Run by academics. They would prefer, in every instance that you attended your local state college.

    Employers. Most important people attended good to elite colleges. When one does that, they develop a keen eye for those who did not go through what they did in order to earn a degree. Sad part is - you may have. But a for profit school says several negative things about you and your character.
    The first is a no brainer - "I am willing to pay a huge amount of money to avoid a college that is non profit and RA because I am more special than you are.

    What does that say to an employer who graduated from UC Berkley? Ann Arbor?

    With all of the online degrees available, I can't make a case for proprietary colleges. They are controversial.
     
  7. Afterhours

    Afterhours Member

    Full Sail is a wildly expensive joke. With a terrible name and a campus that looks like a theme park.
     
  8. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member

    "Here who is aware. Graduate schools. Run by academics. They would prefer, in every instance that you attended your local state college."

    Graduate schools will take anyone who meets admissions requirements. Are some more selective than others? You bet. But I know that the top students at my small private liberal arts college get accepted to graduate programs at IU, Notre Dame, Purdue, etc.
     
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but I must vehemently disagree. If an employer ever felt that my for-profit bachelors was a sign of arrogance, I would have zero desire to work for that employer as, to me, it would be a sign that said employer lacked a basic emotional maturity.

    I worked as a technical recruiter for an international staffing company. Now I am an HR business partner for a large multinational corporation. I have all of the desirable HR certifications. My qualifications extend far beyond my college degree. If paying more than a state school means you "think you are better" than the interviewer then the graduate of every Ivy League college would be unemployable.

    Heck, private non-profit colleges can, at times, out price the Ivys. Ithaca College is significantly more expensive than Cornell for a NYS resident, for example. So would graduates of Ithaca College be viewed as being so holier than thou that they blew more money?

    If an employer is reading that for into your college choice (so as to try to form opinions on your moral values) you need to run. That individual fixates on irrelevant details.

    My degree is accredited by the HLC and my business program is accredited by ACBSP. I can show you a list of non-profit colleges accredited by the same. The only difference between schools like Capella and SNHU (aside from each being accredited by a different regional accreditors) is the corporate structure. That's it. Held to the same standard in terms of curriculum. In fact, Capella is held to even higher standards as a for-profit. SNHU can have abysmal retention rates but still keep its access to Title IV funds, Capella cannot.

    Now, the controversy is significant. I can't say that I would recommend such a school as a first stop, but if we say that merely being for-profit renders a school as useless then we are saying that accreditation is not quite so strong of a measure. We are saying that even if a school has the best accreditation available it can still be arbitrarily written-off as "illegitimate." That's a pretty scary thought. Because no one's degree would be safe for life. What of the people who graduated from Patten and Waldorf before they went for-profit?
     
  10. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I found this interesting article which, again, seems to show that all of these numbers showing how "bad" for-profit schools are seem to focus on the certificate and associate level.
     
  11. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I don't think I've heard an employer say anything like this, but I've heard them say the opposite. Usually, when they have a bias against for-profit colleges, they question the person's intelligence for having spent more money at an unranked for-profit than they would have at a public school.
     
  12. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I've never heard the criticism that someone wasn't intelligent for having spent more money. I've only heard the criticism that the degree is worthless.

    That said, I've heard this sort of thing from people who will fail against UofP and call it a "diploma mill" while not seeming to recognize that other for-profit schools are, in fact, for-profit.

    For example, one of my coworkers was commenting on the whole Corinthian thing the other day while stating she would never hire someone who went to a for-profit school. She has a Masters from Capella (a favorite at my company). When challenged she took offense to my calling Capella for-profit as she didn't want her alma mater lumped in with the likes of Everest.

    When people raise concerns about say, AIU, they think the school sounds "fake."

    I think this is another side of people not understanding accreditation and its role.

    That said, if a candidate came to me with a CPA, ten years of experience and an MBA from UofP and the hiring manager tells me he WOULD have hired him if not for the MBA, we are going to have a chat that the hiring manager won't enjoy (probably won't happen. My accounting managers only care that degrees are accredited and CPA licenses are current).

    The question of why someone would pay for a for-profit degree, when state colleges are sometimes cheaper, can rightly be asked of ANYONE who graduates from a private non-profit college as well.
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Then, you haven't read Rebel100's posts. LOL. He's toned down his rhetoric in recent years, though. If you go to the Work and Employment and College and University forums on City-Data, then you will see hiring managers, HR professionals, and other professionals questioning the intelligence of those who attend for-profit colleges. There is actually a current thread on that guy who attended Everest and couldn't get a job at Best Buy.
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I'll take your word for it.

    I simply meant that no one had ever uttered said criticism in my presence.

    There's also a difference between holding an opinion and letting it impact your hiring decisions. I have never hired for a position where the degree was the primary requirement. Some HR people work in places where that is the case. We very seldom hire people straight out of school. So, we are looking for years of experience, professional certifications, licenses and, sometimes, portfolios. To not hire a person who had a stellar interview and all of that other stuff because they have a degree from say, Trident, is not only incredibly improper but would be a violation of our company policies on degrees. Now, if you had two EQUALLY qualified candidates and one had a degree from Ashworth and another had a degree from SUNY Buffalo, that would be a different story.

    But having two candidates with equal qualifications is actually somewhat rare. That's one of the reasons why it's so difficult to prove hiring discrimination.

    Truth be told, it ties back to what I said earlier, if a hiring manager looked past my entire career and said "CTU? What a moron!" I wouldn't want to work for that person anyway. Fortunately, if I've ever been discriminated against on the basis of my degree, they had the decency to simply pass over my resume and never waste my time trying to berate me to my face. In my office, I'm the only person who gives this much thought to for-profit/non-profit/public and matters of accreditation. In my last office, it was the same situation.

    When I do see an HR person or hiring manager make a statement of "I would never hire..." (As it pertains to education and past employment) I feel like I am facing a person who is either unprofessional in their dealings or naive enough to think that the world is very black and white. My esteemed colleague, just a few years ago, told me she would never hire someone with a six month (or longer) gap in their work history. And just last week she extended an offer to someone who was out of work for nearly 18 months. Why? Because he had a really good reason, an amazing cover letter and he interviewed very well.

    I've also found that academic snobbery never reaches its peak. It's like chasing the end of a rainbow. I was in the cafeteria once when two younger employees were badmouthing another employee. One uttered the words "What else do you expect from SUNY trash?" No matter your education, there is always going to be someone who thinks they are better than you (if you've never been to a Cornell hockey game, BTW, I highly recommend it. When they play Harvard, Harvard taunts Cornell by chanting "safety school" which seems to piss off everybody).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2015
  15. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Yes, snobbery exists at all levels. These are the types of posts one will often see on City-Data.

    City-Data Forum - View Single Post - A University of Phoenix grad friend

    The thread is about an MBA from UoP.

    A University of Phoenix grad friend - Job Search -Interviews, resumes, recruiters, and more - City-Data Forum
     
  16. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Ironically, a simple LinkedIn search would reveal a goodly number of successful graduates of for-profits, including a number working at universities. I ran across a fellow CTU grad who is an AVP at the University of Rochester, apparently he didn't get the memo that his degree is worthless and he ought to sit at home and be unemployed out of shame.

    I also find it humorous that this person would assert that a "simple google search would reveal the worthlessness of their degree" when many people earned their degrees well before a Google wsearch would ever have revealed anything of the sort.

    Oh well, haters gonna hate.
     
  17. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Indeed. People really seem to want these categories to lead to ironclad rules. Reality is inconveniently disinclined to cooperate.
     
  18. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Indeed. Another factor is that people with such ironclad rules seldom have the authority to implement them as they wish.

    My very bestest work buddy (and fellow HR person) has two major pet peeves; long hair and "scruff" (defined here as "not quite a beard and not quite clean shaven"). She thinks both look unprofessional and dirty. Were it up to her, she would never hire anyone with these characteristics. Thing is, HR people seldom have the ability to torpedo an interviewee post-interview (unless there is something egregious). How does she act out her hair prejudice? She makes snarky comments to the hiring manager such as "Don't you think his hair is a little long?"

    HR only sees one side of the interviewee and is looking at them from a different perspective. We aren't screening applicants to see if they can do the job. That's what the hiring manager (we also have potential co-workers interview the individual) knows best. We're trying to make sure no one hires the guy with severe anger issues who rips the place apart (physically or emotionally). So for us to have ironclad rules about anything beyond that (I.e., I would never hire a registered sex offender etc.) is a bit counterproductive.

    We DO have rules about unaccredited degrees. If you come in with a degree from Holy State University, for example, we are disinclined to hire you if the HSU degree is your "qualifying degree." I think it is likely in that same vein that some HR people think they have the requisite authority to ban for-profit degrees. It seems some are fairly content to try to extrapolate conclusions about a person's intelligence, morals and judgment from the possession of a degree from a for-profit school.

    But again, there are people using Almeda University degrees for entire careers. So no matter how controversial something is it's unlikely that a majority of employers are going to do anything differently.
     
  19. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    This discussion about for profit stigma is covering most of the issues.

    in US we know that Education is also a business.

    A person trying to get in to non prophet, public university has to compete with other students just to get accepted.

    A student is a source of income at for profit universities, colleges so admissions are non competitive and open to anybody who graduated high school.

    It is interesting how universities in Russia deal with this situation.
    There are HYBRID universities.

    Parents can finance their childrens degree at Public State university.
    This creates two types of students.
    1. Student who passed entry examinations and earned the spot under country / state funding.
    2. Students who enrolled in the same state university but financing their education independently, such as parent etc. University makes good money on the second group.
     
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    You make it sound like non-profit and public institutions never have open admissions, and that's not so. The whole community college movement is built on open admissions.

    This is very similar to the difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition at public colleges and universities in every U.S. state.
     

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