The War in Iraq

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by Jeff Hampton, Nov 4, 2003.

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  1. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Let's see who is it that started all the American bashing, and then said. "Let me guess you are a republican aren't you?"

    But, when I turn it around, and say let me guess you are French then I am a bigot?

    I think if anything you have shown here that you have a problem with America, Americans, and most of all Republicans. So who is the bigot? You just keep showing your true colors. You are tolerant as long as someone agrees with you, and wants to condemn the US in every breath.

    If being a cheerleader for the greatest nation in the world makes me a bigot then so be it.

    BTW, who is using mockery?

  2. Frankie

    Frankie member

    1) Where have I "bashed" America?

    2) Disliking the ruling government of a country is hardly the same as disliking an entire group of human being due to their ethnicity.

    You said more then that.

    "Yes Frenchie...oops I mean Frankie you are definetly a conservative"


    All this based on my asking you if you are are a Republican? If so, all democrats must be bigots as well?

    No, your obvious dislike and public disdain for the French people simply because they are French is what makes you a bigot.

    Who have I laughed at? Who have I called a communist for disagreeing with me? Who have I called "Frenchie?"

    In fact show me where I have attacked anyone personally.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2003
  3. Jeff Hampton

    Jeff Hampton New Member

    So what? Well I will tell you what. You better not ever come to America, Mr. Canuck Taliban. In our country, if you are suspected of being a terrorist, you have no rights. And the definition of "terrorist" is up to the government. It could mean that you wipe your ass with the wrong hand. There is absolutely no overisght. And we don't even have to charge you with a crime. We will just "hold you indefinately." You will have no access to an attorney. You will not even be entitled to the rights ascribed by the Geneva Convention. We are fighting a war, for God's sake. We can't go around adhering to stupid Constitutional protections passed by people who are long dead and ridiculous international agreements signed by some Commie Democrat.

    You got a problem with that? Well you must be one of those people who hate freedom.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2003
  4. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Do not forget not only do I "hate freedom" but apparently I am a French Communist that would make Lenin blush, oh and I apparently hate America...ahhhh well what do you expect from a French communist like me? :D

    The Hymn of the Soviet Union

    Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
    Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
    Created in struggle by will of the people,
    United and mighty, our Soviet land!

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,
    Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.
    To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,
    Inspired them to labor and valorous deed.

    Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
    Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
    O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
    To Communism's triumph lead us on!

    In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,
    We see the future of our dear land.
    And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
    Selflessly true we always shall stand!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2003
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    No, it highlights my point. You stated earlier in this thread that if your country were attacked, your country's armed forces would deal with it. The once-proud Canadian military has been reduced to a skeleton force (mostly because your government knows that the U.S. will defend them) that could not adequately defend the country against attack.

    You have a lot to thank the U.S., both for what we've done, and what we'd do.
  6. irat

    irat New Member

    Who cares about history, facts,

    Bin Laden had an important alliance with what western country against the Russians?
    Sadam had an important alliance with what western country against Iran?
    Sadam asked the appointed representative of what western country, what they would do if Iraq invaded another middle eastern country?
    Bin Laden stated that what middle eastern dictator was "the devil"?

    In the book 1984 the history books were constantly being rewritten to reflect "current" economic/political alliances.
  7. Frankie

    Frankie member

    They would certainly try.

    The NATO alliance including America would defend Canada, America would help us just as Canada along with NATO helped America in the "War on Terrorism" after 9/11.

    I do not owe America anything.
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    No doubt. And they would be defeated.

    You just made my point. Who is, by a ridiculous margin, the largest contributor to NATO? Hint: It's not Canada.

    Wrong. The fact that you're speaking English or French instead of German or Japanese is due to the U.S. Military.
  9. Frankie

    Frankie member

    I think Britain, Canada, The Soviet Union, The French Resistance, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa amongst others had a little something to do with this as well?

    Who was the only country to have the mutual defence clause activated by its NATO allies to defend them? Hint: It's not Canada.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2003
  10. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    A bit. The fact remains that the United States shouldered the brunt of the Allied combat operations in WWII. None of the countries you listed, even when combined, could have defeated the Axis powers.

    In case you missed it, the Germans were kicking ass all over Europe, and the Japanese all over Asia, until the United States entered the war.

    That played well in the media, but it was a meaningless, feel-good gesture. Wow....Canada pledged to defend the United States?? Geez...we had nothing to worry about! :rolleyes:
  11. Frankie

    Frankie member

    I am sure that British and Canadian combat veternas would appreciate your respect for their brave service. :rolleyes:

    Does that mean that because the Americans entered the war long after it started and fought hard that people such as myself must swear an oath of allegiance to your flag promising never to criticise your nation?

    So because America fought in WWII it is morally evil for me to criticise U.S. modern day foreign policy or its government?

    Surely, you are not saying something as extreme as this?

    You just slapped every Canadian soldier who is in Afghanistan fighting terrorism in the face.

    Those men are fighting to ensure that Americans are never slaughtered by terrorists again, I am sure that they would appreciate being told that their bravery is a "meaningless feel-good gesture."
  12. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    The Brits and Canucks fought bravely in WWII. That doesn't change the fact that their numbers were far in the minority in comparison to U.S. forces. Far in the minority.

    Excuse my ignorance, but I didn't even realize that Canadian troops were serving in combat zones in the War on Terror. How many have been Killed in Action?

    No, a simple "thank you" would suffice. Which, BTW. I haven't seen from you.

    No, just bad form. As I stated, if it wasn't for the United States, you would now be speaking German or Japanese. I think the thought of that would stir just a little bit of loyalty to the country that saved your collective asses. I guess I was wrong.
  13. Frankie

    Frankie member

    Contributed the first coalition Task Group to arrive in CENTCOM AOR.

    Canada currently has 2,100 personnel in the CENTCOM AOR (1,100 land, 200 air and 800 naval personnel). To date, 3,400 personnel have deployed in support of Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF).

    The Canadian Naval Forces have been engaged in Maritime Interception Operations, LeadershipInterdiction Operations (LIO), escort duties and general maritime surveillance between the North Arabian Gulf and the North Arabian Sea. Seven ships deployed to OEF from October 2001 to April 2002.

    Canadian Air Force CC 150 Polaris (Airbus) and three CC130 (Hercules) aircraft have conducted strategic and tactical airlift. They have moved more than 10.4 million pounds of freight to date.

    Two CP 140 Aurora (P3C) aircraft are employed in MIO/LIO as part of Carrier Task Force 57. Eighty-four missions and 746 flight hours have been logged to date. Organic helicopter assets have flown 930 missions for more than 2,900 hours.

    Special Operations Forces are currently in Afghanistan performing the full spectrum of missions.

    HMCS TORONTO, while operating in the North Arabian Sea, intercepted a small vessel laden with 4,500 pounds of hashish (valued at more than $60 million). Its crew abandoned the vessel during the interception. The cargo and vessel were subsequently destroyed.

    Canada’s Light Infantry Battle Group has deployed as part of TF Rakkasan with 828 personnel and 12 COYOTE armored reconnaissance vehicles. These forces have been deployed to Qandahar for security and combat operations. Their successes to date:

    They lead Operation Harpoon from March 13-16, 2002.

    Investigated 30 caves and four mortar positions. Action resulted in three enemy KIA.

    They conducted patrol on March 18, 2002 in the Kandahar region that uncovered a cache of weapons (including three thermobaric launchers).

    They are continuing to conduct Civil Military Cooperation (CIMIC) efforts in the Kandahar area.

    They provided the Quick Reaction Force which deployed from Kandahar to secure the site of Apache helicopter which crashed on April 10, 2002.

    Canada's Casualties

    Robin Rowland, CBC News Online | October 2, 2003 | Updated October 8, 2003

    Two Canadian soldiers, members of the Royal Canadian Regiment, were killed and three injured on October 2, 2003, in a roadside blast southwest of Kabul, which destroyed their light Iltis jeep.

    The Department of National Defence identified the men as:


    Sgt. Robert Alan Short, 42, Fredericton.
    Cpl. Robbie Christopher Beerenfenger, 29, Ottawa.


    Master Cpl. Jason Cory Hamilton, 33, Regina.
    Cpl. Cameron Lee Laidlaw, 25, Oromocto, NB.
    Cpl. Thomas Stirling, 23, Assiniboia, Sk.

    All were members of or attached to the "Para Company," Third Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment, based in Camp Petawawa near Ottawa.

    The Royal Canadian Regiment and other troops are in Afghanistan as part of Operation Athena, which is Canada's commitment to the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan.

    Canadian Casualties: Canada suffered its first combat deaths of the Afghan war on April 18 when a U.S. F-16 pilot bombed Canadian troops conducting a training exercise. The Pentagon said it would investigate one of the worst “friendly fire” incidents of the war, noting that the pilot had mistakenly concluded he was under attack and lacked the authority to drop bombs. The four dead and eight wounded soldiers were the first Canadian combat casualties since the Korean War.

    Because I do not believe that I owe you a thank you. Were you or anyone else participating in this thread fighting in WWII?

    To those Allied troops who fought in WWII and for those who did not come home...they have my deepest gratitude and thanks.

    You are wrong if you think America participating in a war decades ago exempts your nation from criticism when it does something wrong or at least questionable.

    I appreciate what all of the allied nations did in WWII but that does not mean they should be given free reign to do as they please without having to at least endure criticism.

    Besides isn't exercising the right to criticise one of the things those troops fought for?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2003
  14. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Sure. Learn to cope with it.

    You make snide and antagonizing comments about the USA and then act wounded and attacked if anyone dares to talk back. Your interest in DL appears minimal. If you do not like people responding to antagonistically-worded posts--as distinguished from merely controversial or argumentative posts--stop posting them.

    In short, if you don't want to fight, don't pick fights.
  15. Opalese

    Opalese New Member

    Hello all,
    Not too sure if it's the right thing to do to post something here, as I know from experience that these discussions only go from bad to worse. They can get as ugly as the fighting and bloodshed on battlefields and terror attacks.
    Here's my twopence:

    You will notice from my address that I live in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. I was here during both bombings, and saw the first one live from my bedroom window.Our compound was one of the lucky ones. The second attack my husband heard downtown and came rushing home to make sure everything was ok.
    Terrorism is an ugly thing; witnessing it can chase the sleep from your eyes for a long time standing.
    But when the sound of explosions was getting gradually closer and closer on that May 12th bombing, these were my most immediate thoughts: how terrible it must be for anyone, ANYONE who has to sit there while bombs rain down on his/her head, not knowing if after the next one (s)he'll still count as one of the living!
    As I huddled close to my children, I found myself thinking of the people of Iraq and of every other war, people that were unwillingly engulfed by something that my family and I only experienced on a tiny, tiny scale. And I cursed Hollywood for making it all seem so easy and commonplace like pouring milk on cornflakes.

    That out the way I will say only a couple more things. First, while not downsizing my own horror, I have often thought hard about what compels people to do these things. It is not that a certain race of people are more barbaric or bloodthirsty, not in the 21st C ( although check your history you will find great monsters in every age and civlization). It is a combination of other things, including frustration and anger, ignorance of facts and reality ( this last one is a bit like the people who stereotype in this forum), and perhaps a level of "brainwashing" from some others with deep, dark, ulterior motives. Now that sounds as if I just threw in a conspiracy theory for panache, but when you consider that one (perhaps more) of the persons who blew themselves up in the latest bombing on a Riyadh compound on Nov 8th was a teenager of around 16-17, then you wonder what he was told to make him throw away his life. It is not the teachings of his faith that dictate this; it is the teachings of some twisted dictating mind.
    The Saudis here are horrified. Many show the same woeful faces as after 9/11, but more so because this terror is right under their noses. By the way it is quite possible for many people to be practising Muslims, you know, without being violent or supportive of violence in any way. None of the Saudis I spoke to consider these acts to pertain to Islam at all. They are often resentful that their great faith is being constantly put in a bad light, quite often by their own kind, with the media making an even greater rash out of it all.
    As for terrorist attacks in Iraq and the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, it's all too easy to just find a quick and easy conclusion that "most" Arabs and "most" Muslims are violent people, after your head. Áctually, they quite often fall under the catergory of deeply frustrated, angry and very misinformed people. Their leaders do not support them. Their domestic problems are immense. External 'forces'seem to be after their land and security. For some, it's a case of 'when you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose'. Palestinians living here confirm that you mustn't take the news at face value. There is a lot of frustration in that region. They feel like second class citizens in their own homes. Older generations confirm that things weren't always like that. The indigenous Jews, the REAL Israelis who had lived there for ages, lived with them happily and peacefully, shared their food, trade, traditions, etc. Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted in harmony before 1948 in the Holy Land, and there were no suicide bombings back then. It was only after European Jews came that problems arose and unrest broke out, eventually leading to a homeland for the Jews, but not at a small price. So the Europeans mucked it up! Actually, politics is the real culprit, because there is rarely wisdom in political decisions. I'm sure it could have all been done in a much better, less bloody way. People should have started talking way back then to establish trust and understanding with the newcomers.
    I've perhaps said a little too much, but let me add another word or two: don't eat your daily news reports straight from the tray. You may not have time to piece reality faithfully together; ready-to-eat news is so much more convenient and fit to purpose, just so that we all know 'what's going on', but somethimes you owe it to your fellow man (and woman) to try cooking facts yourself from time to time before swallowing them all down.

    My twopence is well and truly spent.

    I believe there is a lot more good in people than you think; you just need to know where (and how) to look.
    Opal :)
    PS I am no authority on issues; just someone who tries to use her eyes, ears and heart to find a more 'real' reality.
  16. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Hi Opal:
    See, this is what I was talking about. I don't agree with huge chunks of what you said. If our differences were laid out in detail, our differences would be very deep indeed.
    So what?
    Your post was well-written and clearly carefully thought out, and your firsthand observations are extraordinarily valuable--as is the perspective some distance can bring. Thanks for posting. Best wishes for your endeavors in DL, and for safety in a difficult place. Janko
  17. Opalese

    Opalese New Member

    Your post was well-written and clearly carefully thought out
    Thanks, Uncle Janko!

    Actually, I wrote-as I almost always do-at the spur of the moment and without looking back much on what I set down. I take your comment as a huge compliment, and another good reason for me not to let go of pursuing my writer's dream. Sometimes I wander a bit and think I ought to do something else with my life, but then I remember I love to write, and then nice people like you come along and remind me that I do it reasonably well, so I get back on track.
    It's hard being a Libran; you just can't help swaying the balance back and forth.
    Take care,
  18. Frankie

    Frankie member

    No, I dared to criticise your President along with your government and I took exception when I was personally attacked for doing so.

    If my opposition simply criticised my arguments without the "Frenchie" remarks and the implications that I am an extreme communist, I would have little problem debating this issue.

    Actually I have posted numerous threads and posts regarding DL and accreditation. Run a search and find out for yourself.

    My posts in this thread have been based on fact. Pure and simple.

    What you call antagonism I call a spirited defense of the truth and as I understand forum rules, it is only a no-no to attack posters not their nations government or foreign policies.

    I will debate anyone over such issues. I just do not see the need to imply that people who criticise the U.S. Government are Communists that would make "Lenin blush."

    Implying that I am in the same category as a movement that resulted in the deaths of millions upon millions of people is rather offensive.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2003
  19. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    would America not be the "terrorist" party?

    I questioned the great Emperor Bush and the glorious empire that he rules

    criticize the great Republican empire..

    Who wrote the above?

    Who called you a communist?
    Here you go Frankie:

    If you want to criticize the US go ahead, but when you mock the US, and put the US down in every post then you can expect some of us who kind of like it here to give it back to you. You assumed I was a republican, so I assumed you were French. You clearly like to post your views, but do not take the replies very well. We have all had that problem here, but you need to learn how to get over it. So, if Frenchie really bothered you that bad then I apologize, but I expect you to lighten up on words like bigot, and the mocking of our country and our leadership. Our foreign policy may not be perfect, but at least we put in some kind of effort to make this world a better place.
  20. plcscott

    plcscott New Member

    Originally posted by Opalese:
    I agree with this 100%. I do not know much about Islam, but as I have said before I do not think that most Muslims are bad, or are terrorist. In fact I agree with you that it is not the Muslim faith at all that is the problem. It is the twisted teachings of the radical Muslims that are causing 16-17 year olds to want to kill others even if by suicide. It is wrong no matter what religion to hate. It is wrong for the white kid to be raised to hate the black kid, and for the black kid to be raised to hate the white kid. It is wrong for the Christian to hate the Muslim, and for the Muslim to hate the Christian. It should not be tolerated, and especially supported by the government.

    Originally posted by Opalese:
    I agree here also, but you should do the same. There is not a lot balanced press coming out of the Middle East either. I may not agree with you and we may both think that the others government needs to make changes, but as long as peace is the main objective then there should not be much argument.
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