The big lie about graduate school

Members,

I have had the pleasure of membership of this group for 4 years. Like many of you, I am working on my doctorate. I enjoy the free flowing exchanging of ideas that are often address in a professional manner. I read the Chronicles of Higher Education “ It isn't often I request members to read articles, I would like to request members to not only read the article but pay attention to the comments offer by others whom have PhD's and some tenure individuals as well.

I would like to have a serious dialogue from individuals like Dr Pina, Dr Bear or anyone else who make their living teaching in academia. As a matter of full disclosure, I am a network engineer I work for Dell. And will be ABD after this quarter at Walden with aspirations of teaching online, and becoming a federal employee.

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Big-Lie-About-the-Life-of/63937/?sid=ja&utm_source=ja&utm_medium=en

 

Here is a recent comment from one professor concerning the article "Good reading, I'm not sure if I have the courage to pass it on to students, I might get fired.

I do know, having put a pencil to it, I could have romped and had fun for the 12 years I spent studying in higher education,
had no debt, and make the same wage as a framer, plumber, or landscape architect (lawn mowing) and only
work 8 hours a day instead of 12. Five or six days a week instead of seven would be nice too, and then there is always that enjoyable 'down-time' between jobs...ahhhhh. Did I mention more freedom to do odd jobs with those vocational skill instead of work for someone? Did I mention there would be no difference in health care, retirement, employee benefits because neither type of job have them?"

 

That article is the perfect summation of why I am pursuing an MA degree via DL. It's cheaper, I still get to scratch the itch I have for advanced history studies and I don't have to put my life on hold and move my family across the country. My chances of getting into academe (where my school choice would matter) is about the same as someone that went to a well known school (pretty slim for everyone these days). In non-academe, where you got your degree doesn't matter as much or even at all.

In the end, my MA in History will likely unlock as many doors as it would if I went to a B&M school and I didn't have to uproot my family in the process.

 

This article seems to be talking about the non-science/engineering faculty - of which I know little. But I know quite a few engineering/science faculty and they earn a salaries of $60,000 and up plus they conduct consulting or obtain grants. One post-doc I know recently received a $250,000/3-year grant from a foundation - of course that is not all pure income - it has to pay for conferences, travel, and a portion goes to the post-docs university. The other faculty members I know do a lot of consulting for aerospace/defense organizations.

 

That's a follow-up article to the one he wrote previously titled "Graduate School in the Humanities: Just Don't Go".

 

To be fair you are talking about people with actual skills, i.e. engineering. The number of consulting jobs for the typical STEM grad student are probably tenfold those of your typical liberal arts/humanities student.

 

Are the folks on here with "real" jobs who teach part-time part of the problem? If I have a good job, as say an IT person, but I like history. I am exacerbating the problem by taking only part-time teaching gigs since my other job pays the bills. Thereby encouraging schools to only hire part-time adjuncts, because why would a school pay someone full-time wages with benefits 80K a year when they can get three part-timers and pay them each 12K per year.

 

There's nothing tragic about this article. The humanities are often best for people making other contributions. My old Army colonel always bragged about his English literature MA, and said he could apply it in many ways to his career as an infantry officer. It was useful because he was a productive person who could make use of the wisdom he gained from studying literature. Today it seems that the situation is better than ever, because you can remain productive and still study philosophy, history, the fine arts or whatever else. Suppose a business exec, engineer, painter, plumber, cop, physician or any other productive person decides to earn a graduate degree in the humanities. As long as he/she keeps things in balance they will probably be wiser and a more well rounded person for the experience...they might even find they have new skills that apply to their existing careers. It's fine to study the humanities, as always, but no none should expect that you can make a living because you're a philosopher. Find an occupation and then study whatever interests you. Maybe it's smart to major in engineering AND history, for example. Or, maybe you can be the HVAC person who also knows literature. Becoming a professor is not the only job in life and not the only reason for graduate school. It's not really unfair if every scholar doesn't get tenure...Fine, you're educated, now go to work! The example the author gives of the PhD in comparative literature who can't find work is not so sad...there are never enough teachers, cops, nurses, firefighters, soldiers and so on...go get a job!

 

To some extent yes. However, I can directly refer to a humanities chair of a reasonably prominent Boston school that was making 45k a year with benefits (tenured) back in 1999. The discussion I had with that person is the reason I didn't go on for a Ph.D in History and focused on technology.

When there's a glut of talent there's a glut of talent. Putting a finger on the part-timers is certainly appropriate for some of it, but I can advise that this particular school had enough teaching fellows to fill a subway coach

 

That was a good article BUT wasn't this realized already? Masters in Liberal Arts or Humanities along with a few others I won't mention are questionable, especially in this new day and age, why would a Ph'd be better? While this isn't true in all cases, I believe people pursue those degrees because they are easier to attain. Yes, they are a ton of research/writing BUT if your good at that, there really is not that much of a challenge. It's more time consuming than anything. MBA's bring a quantitive element that many are afraid of, myself included. I fear Stats. It kicked my butt. So, I'm going for a Masters in Strategic Leadership, all qualitative, no quantitative. Problem is, after 4 weeks, many of us are questioning what are we going to do w/this? It's not hard, a lot of self reflection, they stress this. We have a varied bunch of professionals, especially nurses and almost all of us have our programs paid for. My co-hort is paying out of pocket and is seriously thinking of dropping this in lieu of a more useful degree. Hands down, I know I can complete this program w/not a lot of difficulty BUT in the end, will it turn out to be another Humanities type degree? I am looking at Fairleigh Dickinson U because they have a degree program that I believe will be more useful. Sometimes easier isn't always the best.
ESPECIALLY when you are paying out of pocket and big $$$ to boot, you need to look through the hype of the school and truly figure out what is in your best interest. As they say, Piled Higher and Deeper. They must've been talking about the debt!

 

How do you feel about the article? What central themes resonate with you?

 

Dave,

I view the article from several distinct sets of lenses. One as a working professional who has seen the vestiges' of technology and how it has dramatically altered the way we live. Education has been slow in making the transition. As a PhD student who came into Walden Univ with the knowledge that a tenure professorship was not what I sought. As indicated I work in IT specifically in healthcare. My goal is to move into the federal sector working for the VA either Director of IT or some other capacity. Furthermore, I am already compensated better than most professors, with that said I have several colleagues whom do not have college degrees whom I know are better compensated than me. When article stated “Meanwhile, her brother—who was never very good at school—makes a decent living fixing HVAC systems with a six-month certificate from a for-profit school near the instate” I understand that frustration. During the course of my reading one word (to quote you Dave) resonated with me, RESEARCH! Getting a graduate degree Master’s or PHD is an expensive undertaking and the student needs to understand that obtaining a graduate degree does not guarantee a job or a career in your chosen field.

Lastly, and this one is very difficult for me even to write even on this forum as a parent whom obviously is a believer in education and whom instilled in my daughter to make good grades and get into college. In August, 2008 my baby girl graduated from college as a proud father I was beaming with joy. Then reality set in and daughter couldn’t find a job in her chosen field and unemployed until December when she obtained a position working helpdesk. It was painful to see your child struggle and to know that she did everything you taught, and yet she still work at a department store to make ends and still lived at home The ROI right now for my daughter going to graduate school doesn’t make sense.

 

I would think $60K a year would be fairly short wages for someone with an engineering graduate degree (and more importantly, advanced skills), especially in IT related fields.

 

Probably. I'm set on the income front without having to adjunct but I'd still like to take a few part-time adjunct jobs for the fun and challenge. I guess I'm taking away money from someone that needs that job to eat in the process. I'm not sure this problem is going to go away.

 

Gee, I hate being Big Lied to, but this doesn't come as a surprise.

College is great for some people, necessary for many jobs and is a respectable passion. However, it can also be horrible for some people, pointless for many jobs and a fruitless pursuit.

As a high school student, my guidance counselors and teachers were alarmed when I expressed doubts about college- even going just for undergraduate studies. "What?! Are you just going to THROW your life away?" "You are way too smart to just let it all go to WASTE!"

I knew that the aforementioned school faculty were brainwashed into believing a few things that I already knew weren't true, namely that going to college is the only way to be either a respectable adult or to have a satisfying life. In fact, at the time, I felt that college may accomplish just the opposite.

I have many anecdotes that I could share with you from my own life as well as the resultant fate of others that can illustrate this point, including a BC grad who works at Dunkin' Donuts, a vocational school graduate who works at Petco, and a community college grad who works with teenagers at a movie theatre on one end and General Managers, train engineers and financial advisors with nothing more than a HS diploma who make over 50k with benefits.

However, the point I REALLY want to make is that of a realist. Often others are scorned or condescended upon for their choice (or lack of choice) of employment. Also, Sociology textbooks, political speeches and radio talk shows make mention of the plight of the underclass, and tout education as THE way to upward mobility.

The problem is that not everyone can actually move up. If every single person in this country were to, today, graduate with a PhD, the job prospects and, therefore, financial opportunity and social prestige would not change for anybody even in the slightest bit. That EVERYONE has a PhD doesn't change the fact that teaching positions are limited and somebody still has to mop the floors.

Education, to me was never about job prospects. Likewise, who I am as a person is not defined by what I do for work. If I work as a garbage man, my life isn't about garbage. I WORK as an interpreter, but an interpreter is not who I AM. If your life is that caught up in your work, then maybe you need to analyze whether or not you are missing out on brighter, more meaningful things.

Education is not something bought, sold, given nor received. Education is a CHOICE that you make each day of your life (your garbage man, if holding no degrees, might actually be the most educated person in your MBA, MD and JD heavy town).

You are who you CHOOSE to be.

 

Agreed. I chose to pursue an MA in History mainly because I wanted to study history at a deeper level for my own personal satisfaction. Nothing more. Any jobs I get because of it are a bonus.

 

MC, you bring up very good points. I just left a municipal job where no one had degrees, and quite a few made over $75,000 w/not a lot of OT. $4.00 a wk for medical, $8.00 wk for family medical coverage, FREE vision and dental. Our deputy director, ops mgr and regulatory affairs mgr each made $100,000, no degree. Bonus $$$ at the end of the year for all. When I worked at the refinery, no degrees, many earned over $100,000 yr., more than the chemical engineers but of course, we worked crazy hrs. As much as I believe a degree is almost a necessity today, you are right, those w/out degrees have been sort of looked down upon. Tradesman in many instances have not gotten the respect OR salaries they deserved. White collars have almost always been paid better. Then again.....
We have municipalities where you only get in knowing someone, degrees are laughed at. Then the taxpayers are raked, while individuals are fully protected, carry no school debt (unless of course they want to) and walk around not fully appreciating their golden position. When I see their pensions compared to my military pension, I really understand their great fortune. Finally, the system is out of whack, the excessive salaries of some are keeping others from jobs.
Some might think this is just a blip on the radar, but I feel otherwise. The days of the protected union municipal worker are coming to an end, I believe this is a good thing, standby for privatization. Excessive school administrator salaries, especially in the Democratic states, will become a thing of the past eventually, this will also be good. But we need to focus on the executives and financial "wiz kids" who are keeping many from jobs they deserve but can't have because these greedy bums have siphoned the $$$ up.
And always remember, degrees can be valuable, but hook-ups are priceless.

 

Big Lie

I have taught at various universities for over 30 years and have been tenured at a mid-level masters degree granting university.

I always advise students in the humanities and social sciences NOT to pursue a PhD unless there's NOTHING else in life he or she wants to do.

Students are mistakenly encouraged to pursue PhD because faculty want to be emulated. However, getting a PhD isn't fun like college; it's sitting alone writing and researching.

After years of struggle to get a degree, one faces a job market glut and the caste system of India is fluid compared to the accepted ranking of graduate schools.

If one somehow manages to get a job, the tenure process is brutal.

One big exception in social sciences and humanities is under-represented minorities, African-Americans and Latinos. They can be assured of getting a job and tenure.

Getting a PhD sucks.
Getting an academic job sucks.
Getting tenure sucks.

 

Ohhhhhhh that gave me a good laugh. Thanks!!!

 

The real big lie:

Education's purpose is to get a job.

Another:

You need a degree to get a good job.

Truth:

Academia's purpose is to create academics.

Truth:

An education combined with experience is likely to put you in a better position in interviews and will help once you're employed.

Truth:

The only level of education that really matters for anything job related is the doctoral, and only if you're interested in a field that requires it as a rite of passage.

Advice:

Just because you have a masters or doctorate doesn't mean you put it on a resume or application unless the job needs it or mentions a preference in the job posting.

Advice: Apply to anything that interests you in any way and don't be afraid to be the popcorn guy at the movie theatre. There are experiences in service jobs that are very valuable and our culture often values strange things that make no sense from a values perspective and discounts others unfairly.

Two cents.