The "Bethany Discussion Forum"

===

Thanks Craig

IMO, you are an excellent and respectable ad for LBU and your input is valued.



I've one comment and three questions:

Comment: Sometime back I attended an a BBF church- I think it was. The pastor was preaching on baptism using the KJV. He said, based on John 4:2, that Jesus baptised His disciples. I happened to have brought my Greek text with me. After the service I pointed out to the pastor, with my finger on the verse in Greek, in my customary humbled demeanor, that as "disciples"(mathetai) in 4:2 was in the nominative case , they could not be the object of the second, implied "baptized." Therefore, 4:2 meant that the disciples baptised not were baptised. His response reflected the notion that it really mattered not what the Greek said but rather what the KJV said which could be supportive of his interpretation.

Question: Is such denseness common or atypical of Independent Baptists?

Question: As LBU likes Chafer, why is there not a working relationship as in joint research and transfer of coursework and degrees with Dallas Theological Seminary which also is dispensational and has Chafer as a founding father?

Question: At LBU did you engage in classes which soley consisted in Greek exegeses of NT Books -not of the English with occasional allusions to the original languages- wherein in addition to responding to grammatical , syntactical and lexical issues of the Greek, actual textual studies using the Greek MSS, Patristic quotations, and early translations were done to support one reading over another?

Thanks,

 

Bill:
Thanks. Your BBF pastor may very well have been dense or simply blinded by the glory of the KJV. More likely he can't read Greek. A lot of Baptist pastors can't. Educational standards are not uniform among independent, fundamental Baptists (indeed they do not exist). Anyone who can get a church to hire him is the pastor. Some congregations may still exist that actually distrust high falutin' seminary education. Another, far less likely possibility is that the pastor cleverly noticed that your Greek text was not the Textus Receptus and simply did not want to engage someone with a corrupt Greek text . I never took a class at LBU that was entirely on Greek or Hebrew exegesis. Most work is done in the English Bible, the KJV. DTSis a dispensational school, but no longer uses Chafer in its classes. They are leaning toward a modified dispensationalism. I don't know if they have a real relationship with any unaccredited school. DTS is higher on the prestige ladder, to say the least, than LBU, I don't know if they would se the relationship as productive. They don't have such a relationship with PCC or BJU either.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

Blessings.

 

Very true in most IFB circles, unfortunately. This has certainly been my experience in the IFB movement for the last 15+ years.

Yes, they still do exist. More than I would care to admit probably.

Although it is unlikely that such a pastor could have recognized the difference between the TR, Majority, or Critical text, it is not unlikely that the concern over the text could be a problem. There is an every increase emphasis on KJV-onlyism in IFB circles (it is a real plague as far as I am concerned), often with a cleverly disquised appeal to the TR (this is not to discount to more sincere TR supporters). Schools like Central Baptist Seminary (MN), Detroit Baptist Seminary and others are working hard to combat such lunacy.

Someone associated with Bethany recently told me that the KJV issue has been pushed more in recent years than formerly. Thus, they have lost some support from non KJV-only people. This would be similar to what is happening elsewhere. PCC is another example of a school that has went crazy with KJV-onlyism in recent years, attacking other good schools for their compromise with the critical text and modern versions.

 

Since it's Thanksgiving and I am taking a day off from my studies and since this has gone (not "has went," Alan!) on too long. I have to comment.

Bethany Divinity College and Seminary is Trinitarian, always has been, always will be. They DO NOT allow various opinions on this or the Incarnation.

Dr. Shuemake emailed me, after Alan Easton emailed him, sharing my posts with Dr. Shuemake. Dr. Shuemake told me in no uncertain terms my position is "unacceptable with Bethany," and gave me a list of Scriptures supporting the Trinitarian view.

Also, the Bethany Forum was begun (not "was began," Alan!) by me. It was MY forum as a favor to Bethany. Dr. Shuemake emailed me and asked me to take it down because Alan Easton was posting negative comments and untruths about Bethany. By the way, Alan Easton was a student of Bethany at one time!

Bethany will create a new forum with strict controls. I hope this puts these issues to rest. You may not like Bethany but don't misrepresent its doctrinal positions and don't state, incorrectly, Bethany tolerates the views of those who disagree with its positions because it does not!

An individual can attend a number of Bible colleges and seminaries and not be in full compliance with all the statements of belief. Seminaries of the three Peace Churches have students who do not support all beliefs of the respective denominations.

I am sure not all who attend Church of the Brethren seminaries support their position on foot washing. I am sure not all who attend Mennonite seminaries are pacifists, and I am sure not all who attend Friends seminaries support their positions on baptism and communion.

You can rest assured that not all who attend Lutheran seminaries support the doctrine of Consubstantiation and not all who attend Roman Catholic seminaries support the doctrine of Transubstantiation.

Pardon my ignorance but I thought the Inquisition ended. I would guess you would have been right there, Uncle Janko, rolling on the ground in robust laughter at the execution of Servetus and you would have volunteered to scatter the ashes of Savonarola.

I have learned there is no reasoning with you. You are a very narrow-minded, arrogant, individual who is as delusional as your theological forefather, Martin Luther. Like Luther you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. Like Luther you are a very foul-mouthed person. Like Luther you are very vitriolic, sarcastic, and condescending. Like Luther you cannot debate or discuss issues without ad hominem attacks. I am glad I am not in your presence. You might see me as Satan and throw feces at me!

If you want to believe in superstition, mythology, and paganism, that's your choice. My theological beliefs are my choices. The Crusades, the Inquisition, and heresy trials are past history. Move into the 21st Century of science, logic, and reason.

Now, be a good boy and go read Luther's Large and Small Catechisms. Actually, on second thought, why don't you read Erasmus.

 

True Alan, very true. I like the received text myself, and among English Bibles I prefer the KJV. I think there are some good arguments for it (them). Majority is an issue that should be carefully balanced with antiquity. There is no reason to assume, with scribal texts (less true with printed texts) that the older exemplar is better. This is true for non biblical and biblical texts alike through the 1400's. The text that exists in the majority is in the majority often for a reason. I doubt the pastor Bill met was thinking of these things. There is a Ruckman-like element in the BBF that wants to move the fellowship in that direction. Unlikely in that Baptist Bible College, the fellowships main school is a candidate for RA if they did not already get it. LBU is run by prtetty intelligent people who do have to balance a little between "worldly" academics and Baptist "tradition" or more correctly Baptist culture. My argument for schools like Bethany and LBU and even PCC and BJU is that they have a place. They are not schools in the academic mainstream philosophically or operationally, but there is a place for them. After 12 years in RA secular schools, I enjoyed LBU. It was different--not better, but LBU represented a fresh approach to learning (even to the idea of what learning is and what is worth learning in the first place.) I kind of like a touch of eccentricity in people and in schools. I like and enjoy the slightly counter culture milieu of the IFB movement. I couldn't live on it exclussively, but it has a kind of coherence that I respect in some odd way. My own Bible is an Old Scofied in black Moroccan leather, just like all the old timers use. You would be surprised (well you probably would not be) how just having that particular Bible gets one accepted in IFB circles.

Blessings

Craig

 

Hi Jimmy! I am not inserting myself in your discussion, just one minor correction. If one is in a Roman Catholic seminary and privately questions transubstantiation, there will be no problem. The minute he teaches or in public endorses an anti-transubstantiation position, he will not much longer be in that seminary. Many seminaries do require that graduates sign a statement of doctrinal position before starting classes then again before graduation. Luther Rice, for example does this. Luther--my personal theological hero--is not vitriolic, he just had a strange sense of humor. Have a great Thanksgiving my friend!

Blessings

Craig

 

Craig,

I too, use an old Scofield reference edition KJV. They cannot be found anymore. There are the new Scofield study bibles but they just don't seem quite the same.

 

Hi Way: I think the Old Scofield is back in print by Oxford, that is the 1917 edition; the really old, old Scofield (1909) is available in reprint. I like it at BBF pastor's meetings where you can give Scripure references by page number because everybody has the same Bible. Be sure to get it in black Moroccan leather--bonded leather will never do. It costs about $110, but I got one on clearance last year for about $60. I like to go to the pastor's meeting with that Bible wearing a white startched shirt with black or dark blue tie and black coat, with my hair slicked back, looking like I escaped from 1952, and nobody notices, cause they all look that way. Seriously, it is a great preaching Bible because the text though small is somehow very readable. It is really sharp print. Have a great Thanksgiving!

Blessings

Craig

 

Scofield 1909 KJV

Hi Craig,

I've tried to locate an old 1909 Scofield Reference Bible off and on and could never find one. If you know of a source, could you let me know please? I have an old 1909 but the binding is starting to come apart.

 

Could this be what you are looking for?

original Scofield Reference Bible..VG++ shape Item number: 3569482134
"Description
Beautiful older version of the original Scofield Reference Bible, every single page is clean with no pencil/pen or highlighter marks... I did not find a copyright anywhere.....the cover is a black leatherflex and there are bible study notes/maps in the back...i encourage emails with your quesitons"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3569482134&category=29361

 

Way: It is published as "The First Scofield Study Bible" by World Publishing, Grand Rapids. Try Christian Books (christianbooks.com). The Bible is inexpensive but the materials are not good. It does contain the essay "Rightly Dividing ths Word of Truth." Being a reprint, the text is not very sharp.

Blessings

 

"Oh dear. Oh dear."--J.B.
______________________________________________

No poster need fear my confusing him with satan.
Satan is an expert liar.
______________________________________________

Hi Craig, Alan, and Way:

Thank you for providing a witty glimpse of the world of very conservative Baptists. Your sobriety and reliability in other matters of fact leads me to trust your perspective. Your obvious affection for your tradition's foibles is intelligent and gracious.

Craig, I should add that your comments about Roman Catholic seminaries would apply, mutatis mutandis, to confessional Lutheran seminaries as well.

Also, that "First Scofield Bible" reprint is readily available at Borders and Barnes & Noble.

Now I know you guys are not, um, real big on liturgy, but you might be interested to know that Savonarola's hymn "Gesu sommo conforto" is commonly sung in confessional Lutheran churches. It is also not unusual for Savonarola and Hus to be commemorated in our kalendars as martyrs; in my parish we do so on the Sunday preceding Reformation Day. Paraments for this observance are either red (for martyrs or a church-historical commemoration) or green (as a minor festival in Trinity season).

Behold, I tell you a mystery: what did Shuemake know, and when did he know it?

Even we would applaud the words of the famed Unitarian theologian William Ellery Channing,
who had no tolerance for flummery:
"We hold that if God be infinitely wise, He cannot sport with the understandings of His creatures."

Cordially,
Janko

 

Jimmy....do you remember the promise you made to Chip & me regarding your attitude when we reinstated you?

Watch the personal attacks.

 

Hi Unk!

Actually, I love the liturgy because I was raised Catholic. My mom became Catholic and my dad was Catholic. My education through high school was Jesuit. But my mom's mother was a fundy Baptist who took me to her church every Wednesday and Sunday night to counter the popish influences of my "day" religion. Actually, I have a real affection for both traditions. By nature my outlook is Protestant, but I find there is nothing as spiritually engaging as the Eucharist--which I see in essentially Lutheran terms. Still I love good biblical preaching. If I were a logical being I would probably join you in Lutheranism. I am mildly Calvinistic and lean strongly toward a Calvinistic rather than evangelical doctrine of security. My dispensationalism is progressive. My academic background is in literary theory and textual criticism. In biblical studies I have a real weakness in my lack of skill in Greek and Hebrew ( just a pinch of greek and no Hebrew, but pretty good Latin) Hey Unk, have a great remainder of the holiday.

Blessings, Craig

 

Duly noted and apologies to Uncle Janko. May the unkind posts about me now end as well.

 

We Latinists have to stick together. More power to you, Craig. You too on the holiday.

 

Unc: What do you mean by the term "confessional" Lutheran? Could you tell me something about your denomination? If you prefer to do so privately, you might send me a PM, but I think others might be interested. Is it, as I gather, a conservative Lutheran movement?

Blessings